Military M16's and M4's

This is a discussion on Military M16's and M4's within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; From my understanding, FN now supplies both the M16 and M4 to our military... http://kitup.military.com/2013/02/ar...ntract-fn.html This spawns one comment and one question: Comment - I ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array DetChris's Avatar
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    Military M16's and M4's

    From my understanding, FN now supplies both the M16 and M4 to our military...

    http://kitup.military.com/2013/02/ar...ntract-fn.html

    This spawns one comment and one question:

    Comment - I now want one of these...
    New from FNH USA: FN-15 Modern Sporting Rifles | The Truth About Guns

    Question - a lot of people mention LMT, BCM, KAC and DD as Tier 1 manufacturers. Are any of them officially used in the military or just LEO?

    Following the old adage of "just get a Colt; the military uses them", should the new 21st century adage be "just get a FN"? Would spending more for a LMT, BCM, DD, KAC or even (gasp) a Colt be equal to a FN AR-15?


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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Really to me any mil spec gun ( which in of it self is silly for a number of reason ) is the same as the miltrary used ... Really all of them are clones as you can not easly have a 14.5 barrel and of course can not drill a sear hole in your gun etc ...

    But yeah this was not about what was better but who had the money a your link shows... From what I hear FN does not make the AR on the mil lines for variouse reason... A colt would be the same as FN in my book.... As would be a BCM etc all milspec and the same or near same barrels/etc ...
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    They are all good. I carried a Colt M-16 in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s in the military. The average shooter will never need or use one to the maximum to know the difference other than for bragging rights. My 5.56X45mm rifle is a Colt LE6920 with iron sights. For serious shooting, I prefer my Armalite AR-10 7.62X51mm.
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    Senior Member Array 19Kvet's Avatar
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    Colt lost their exclusive contract with DOD a couple of years ago for QA/QC issues. They had that exclusivity for decades- initially based on the patents they bought. Now the mil-spec standard is the "Statement of Work" for contract purchases- FNH has the current contract to make M-4A1s but that may change for the next contract (depending on how the contract is written they may have a multi version contract).

    I have never seen a civilian version of a FNH made M-4A1 in stores and don't even know if they produce a civilian version so your question may be moot.

    I loved working with the M-240s (base version) made by Belgium FN, they make good weapons.

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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19Kvet View Post
    Colt lost their exclusive contract with DOD a couple of years ago for QA/QC issues. They had that exclusivity for decades- initially based on the patents they bought. Now the mil-spec standard is the "Statement of Work" for contract purchases- FNH has the current contract to make M-4A1s but that may change for the next contract (depending on how the contract is written they may have a multi version contract).

    I have never seen a civilian version of a FNH made M-4A1 in stores and don't even know if they produce a civilian version so your question may be moot.

    I loved working with the M-240s (base version) made by Belgium FN, they make good weapons.

    The link he posted indcated that FN is making a AR rifle for the civie market .. Not on the smae produacatio lines as mil but same factory same thing as colt is doing with the 6920 rifles ...

    And as a fun FYI i know you as a civilain can own a 240 clone and Saw fn clone in the usa there are compaines that make semi auto only version now if you want ... Not as fun as full auto but you dont got to be a FFL with law letter or a manfucatore to get one ...
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    OD*
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    Colt lost the contract because FNH under-bid them, it wasn't because of a QA/QC issue.
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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Colt lost the contract because FNH under-bid them, it wasn't because of a QA/QC issue.
    Yep all mil guns are about the money... Who can deliver a product the chepest ... If it was about the best well we might be carrying sigs and some fancy rifle right now ....

    Heck the only reason we had issues in nam is they got cheep and issue the wrong ammo (dirty dirty powder or the such)


    Just beacaseu the mil usese it does not mean it is some wonder gun... We are still using the 223 only as we forced NATO to use it and most of them use it and we have god know how many rounds and mags laying around for it .... The reason why it has hung on so long .... We are probly going to be using it till we get phase plus rifle or rail guns in use....


    Colt made the first AR and they have some of the longest exeperican with it .... IMOP unlike say a g3 or ak most AR are all about the same inside ... There is only so much you can add on or imporive with the NFA act in places... Sure the triggers on some civie AR might be better or the the barrel might be nice but the lower will be about the same .... So I would really not worry about what name is on the lower unless you just like to buy that brand....

    well assuming the name is not Hesse/Vulcan/CAI well then we should talk cause more then likely if it has Vulcan on it it will probable blow up in a rather hilarious fashion if there other guns are any indcation ...
    Eric357 likes this.
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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Colt is the only one that builds for the military and sells the same exact quality rifle to civilians. FN and Remington Defense both hold the TDP for mil use only and are not permitted to build to those specs for civilians.

    LE does not get to purchase the military rifles. They typically purchase what we do or full auto versions if they have some silly idea they could ever use that feature (they can't and don't in most cases - not do most soldiers, especially special operations).

    The FN ar15 is junk compared to their military offerings. Handled one at SHOT and it was on par with Bushmaster or DPMS, etc.

    Colt is the only way to us sure you get the same quality and specs as the issues rifles. BCM is also a guaranteed way to get one of the most consistent, high quality fighting rifles available. They have tighter QC than most other companies and source from suppliers that don't sell to just anyone.

    FN can build civilian SCARs to the same spec as their military models but that is not true for the civilian AR, which is junk.

    Having said that, I know if I stick to BCM and Colt I will get high quality and consistency. Other companies will often accept lesser quality or let slide past QC what otherwise wouldn't when trying to push number.... Like PSA did a couple years back. You'll never see this with BCM and they'll send products back before trying to make a dollar.

    The same cannot be said for bushmaster, DPMS, model 1, del-ton, PSA on occasion, Armalite, Windham (sp?), etc.
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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    LMT and KAC are both in military use. So are components from these companies along with Daniel Defense.

    Law aw enforcement will use just about anything, but more tuned in departments that have learned from experience or listened to experience will typically use Colt, BCM or similar. There are a ton of stories where things went wrong with bushmaster or other hobby grade rifles.

    Every issued Colt will have KAC or MaTech irons and often an LMT SOPMOD though B5 now holds that contract. The SOPMOD block 2 kit for special operations is typically KAC front and rear BUIS for those outfitted with the Daniel Defense RIS II and some have the LMT bolt, though not that many.

    All issued Colt rifles for general forces and special operations (that aren't using the RIS II, which is still a huge number) will have the KAC RAS.

    KAC M110's are in use by the US military. The KAC SR16 is in use by some within DoD.

    There re were some MK18's that came out of Crane with LMT 10.3" barrels. The majority were cut down Colts, but not all. LMT also supplies their MWS 308 to British troops.

    The majority of the forward thinking departments are using BCM or Colt because they can be had at a good price and they are consistent from order to order with very few issues ever needing resolved. Most cannot make that claim.

    edit - Colt civilian rifles come off the same line as the military rifles, not just the same factory. They are built exactly the same they just do not go through the same inspection to certify them as mil spec.

    FN, no matter where they build the civilian rifles, are utter garbage compared to Colt. I couldn't believe the pictures I had seen and things I heard until I held one myself. Both display models at SHOT were laughable.

    A Colt 6921 14.5" like my main 5.56 rifle is as close as you can get to military issued. Same barrel, upper receiver, barrel extension, gas port size, gas tube, flash hider, bolt and carrier. You can buy these from SAW all day long pinned if you want to avoid the NFA fees and wait.

    But I don't buy mine because I want what they use, I buy it because it's proven. In most cases I actually prefer BCM, but I like Colt equally as much for their quality. They've been proven time and time again. I want something that works. Though the military is not using BCM, I still know they run right next to my Colts and are just as reliable. I really can't say that about any other manufacturer though.

    BCM actually has some advantages. Mid length is advantage to some. I'll take it or leave it on a 14.5". They use CHF barrels. They also just introduced a straight taper like KAC, Centurion and Noveske which will have less whip which helps with accuracy, disperse heat better and have a longer service life. One of the best options out there right now.
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  11. #10
    Ex Member Array DetChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 19Kvet View Post
    Colt lost their exclusive contract with DOD a couple of years ago for QA/QC issues. They had that exclusivity for decades- initially based on the patents they bought. Now the mil-spec standard is the "Statement of Work" for contract purchases- FNH has the current contract to make M-4A1s but that may change for the next contract (depending on how the contract is written they may have a multi version contract).

    I have never seen a civilian version of a FNH made M-4A1 in stores and don't even know if they produce a civilian version so your question may be moot.

    I loved working with the M-240s (base version) made by Belgium FN, they make good weapons.
    If you click on the link in my OP you'll see that FNH is indeed making civilian AR's based on their military versions.


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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetChris View Post
    If you click on the link in my OP you'll see that FNH is indeed making civilian AR's based on their military versions.


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    It is not based on their military M4 at all. It's a completely different quality rifle. The only thing it has in common is its appearance.

    Buffer, barrel, obviously the tolerances after seeing it (didn't even need to measure it) bolt carrier group, etc are all different.

    With a Colt 6921 the only difference from the issues M4 is select fire. The new M4a1 PIP includes a full auto upgrade from 3 round burst and a heavy barrel for longer sustained rate of fire. That's basically a 6721, minus the full auto fire control group. The 6721 is also 16" but you can get the 14.5" from SAW.

    I don't like heavy barrels, personally. They could have achieved the same results without the added weight had they just done away with the m203 notch and gone with a straight taper of the same weight instead of the heavy profile that still has the 203 notch but adds a half pound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    It is not based on their military M4 at all. It's a completely different quality rifle. The only thing it has in common is its appearance.

    Buffer, barrel, obviously the tolerances after seeing it (didn't even need to measure it) bolt carrier group, etc are all different.

    With a Colt 6921 the only difference from the issues M4 is select fire. The new M4a1 PIP includes a full auto upgrade from 3 round burst and a heavy barrel for longer sustained rate of fire. That's basically a 6721, minus the full auto fire control group. The 6721 is also 16" but you can get the 14.5" from SAW.

    I don't like heavy barrels, personally. They could have achieved the same results without the added weight had they just done away with the m203 notch and gone with a straight taper of the same weight instead of the heavy profile that still has the 203 notch but adds a half pound.
    I am with you on heavy barrels! I am trying to run things as light as possible these days. What got me on this kick was heavily modifying my .308 AR platform.
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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time to chime in, jonconsiglio. I always learn something new when you post.
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    Mil Spec = the minimum acceptable standard (expectations) in endurance, performance, and construction (that is, you want it NOT to fail too soon, too often, due to poor materials).

    The bar is set where, hopefully, the cost balances with the standards as determined by the military (you get what you want for a reasonable price). You meet the standards, have the lowest cost, and are able to meet production requirements (time to produce & amounts of product), you would expect to get the contract.

    To me, if those standards are met, I don't care if Tonka produces it (think WWII and the 30 Carbine..Singer, Rockola, GM, National Postal Meter, IBM.......)
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    Distinguished Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Every M16A2 I was issued from 1996-2004 was a FHN. Then A4's in late 2005 for Iraq. I never saw a Colt. The last couple years, the company was refitted with M4's (FHN) for Afghanistan. The 240B's, 249's, MK19's, and AT-4's were all FHN. I think FHN is even putting out M2's now.

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