Short barreled AR feasibility and lethality

Short barreled AR feasibility and lethality

This is a discussion on Short barreled AR feasibility and lethality within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; OK Gurus. I want an AR pistol so that I can add an SB15 brace and make it an UN-SBR. I've seen Mr. Consiglio speek ...

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    Member Array glocknjeep's Avatar
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    Short barreled AR feasibility and lethality

    OK Gurus.

    I want an AR pistol so that I can add an SB15 brace and make it an UN-SBR. I've seen Mr. Consiglio speek of 300 blackout being better for short barrels due to faster powder burn rate, so I thought of building a 300 upper but then I check ammo prices and sent that idea on the nope train headed to screw-that-ville.

    So what is the minimum barrel length upper that still maintains some fragmentation range? Are there any factory loads that lend themselves particularly well for SBR's i.e. faster burning powders?


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    Lehigh Defense makes some "Controlled Fragmenting" rounds, but if I recall correctly, they are fairly expensive.

    Make sure you are rock solid on the laws as well concerning an AR Pistol with that new brace. I've read on numerous "reputable" sites that if you get busted shouldering that thing, even in the heat of the moment it's a big no no. But this is the interweb, do you own investigating and research on local, state and federal laws to be sure. You might be better off just getting the Tax Stamp for a true SBR.

    The price of 300Blk ammo is what kept me from building one in that caliber when I put my AR together. I still might build an upper for it yet just to play around with from time to time.

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    Distinguished Member Array DingBat's Avatar
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    didn't you recently get a TAVOR? I did. finally. SICK!!

    I did all the research about this before deciding on the TAVOR.

    this was the single best article I oculd find on the subject. others I found merely supported this. simply; the .223 falls below the threshold if the barrel is shorter than about 9".

    Barrel Length Studies in 5.56mm NATO Weapons

    it seems 9" is okay, but not past 100 yards, that an aweful short range for a .223, even a "CQB" one.... 7" is almost useless, that's a barrel length when it really is is becoming an extra-loud .22 mag..... and for that I think I would get a ps90 and at least have 50 shots of .22 mags in a proper bull-pup designed for it....

    I was all set to put together a Spikes "enhanced kit" lower with BCM's "Kino Configuration" 12.5" upper. this would've been a lot cheaper than the TAVOR, but with the tavor I got a longer barrel and a (I think) better gun. another article I found said that the 12.5" would hold the critical 2,500 fps to like 180-190 yards. that seemed acceptable for a "cqb" gun. but then I just got the tavor....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatrix View Post
    Make sure you are rock solid on the laws as well concerning an AR Pistol with that new brace. I've read on numerous "reputable" sites that if you get busted shouldering that thing, even in the heat of the moment it's a big no no.
    Interestingly enough, everything I have seen says just the opposite.

    The ATF's opinion is that using a device improperly does not change the classification of the device itself.

    See the last paragraph on this page:



    All that said, any modification of the brace to make it more "stock-like" probably could get you in some serious trouble.

    MAC has a good video on the subject.


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    Senior Member Array 19Kvet's Avatar
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    Shouldering a pistol doesn't make it a rifle- most of the time it would just hurt some and impede its function.

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    Couple points :

    1. Fed have ruled it is perfect legal to shoulder a sig brace not SBR
    2. There is a compay that make a longer buffer tube just for the Sig brace ... You will want to look into this ( I will try to find the site)
    3. I think 10-11 was as low as you should go for these
    4. Have you looked at a AK round gun x39? This does not care as much what barrel legenth it is fired from...


    Me I am thinking of doing a 45 acp AR with the longer sig brace buffer tube ...
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    For best reliability, 10.5" barrels are recommended minimum with 5.56 x 45. Shorter barrels can work fine if the gas system is tuned for them. Recommendations I have for ammunition for shorter barrels (below 10.5") are to not go over 55gr. Recommendation for fighting ammunition was to go with Black Hills 50gr TSX.

    I have a thread here somewhere about my working with a 7.5" AR pistol if you want to check that. May not be much help. I consider this potentially effective out to 200 yards, but will likely be employing it far under that range if I ever have to get it in grip. The 10.5" barrel can go 300 easily and use the heavier ammunition that will best maintain trajectory and velocity at those ranges.
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    I recently read a long ballistic overview of the .223/5.56. (For the life of me, I can't find it back...M4Carbine???)
    The author hammered on SBR-use in LE/SWAT.
    His point was that the most-commonly used .223/5.56 rounds lose their effectiveness below a certain velocity.
    And that in SBR's <14" barrels...the bullet never reaches the critical velocity needed to expand...and so zip right through intended targets.
    He also noted much-increased flash and noise-level.... especially in confined spaces (e.g. damaged eardrums, etc.)
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    Member Array glocknjeep's Avatar
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    Thanks guys...FYI I am also considering an AK pistol in 7.62X39. To answer your question Dingbat, yes I love the Tavor but was just doing something different.
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Check the Balllistics by the Inch website to get some estimations of velocity loss with the shorter barrels.
    "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he rocked another mag into the 556R...

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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocknjeep View Post
    Thanks guys...FYI I am also considering an AK pistol in 7.62X39. To answer your question Dingbat, yes I love the Tavor but was just doing something different.

    Get them now if I was you... They are the beese knees .. Look at the m92 pap .. 400 bucks or so and very very well built .. They are the last pure AKs we can get no USA parts at all just imported as is ...


    If you wanted 223 they make the m85 pap wich takes AR mags and is very nice under 500 too and makes a heck of a fireball ....


    Bullpups are good too .. Shortest rifles that are allow in terms of OAL etc ... I like the Travor as well

    But if you have never fired a krinkov ak it will put a big grin on your face ( and tick off the guys in the next bay )


    Really I would take a AK handgun over under 10 inch AR ... You get more hitting power and such with the AK .....As other said I too feel 14 or so is about right for SBR AR what the mil uses for the m4 after all ...

    But as I see it you can build a AR most any time .. AK handguns who know how long thouse will be around for ... I think it is awsome to be able to fire a pureish AK not monkey with in america .. That and not paying the 1-3k a pre 89 one is going for


    Plus you can always add 16 inch barrel and a stock and 922r parts to it if you want to go rifle or do this




    not mine but on my list
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    If you want good penetration and are concerned about the fragmentation, don't waste your time with a SBR in the 5.56/.223 caliber.

    Suck up the cost of ammo and go with the .300 Blackout. Ammo cost isn't any more than most .30 cals and the supersonic rounds will be so much better than the 5.56/223 that its not even in the same league.Not to mention muzzle flash. While some agree that it looks cool at the range, in a combat situation muzzle flash is not your friend.

    Even the 14.5 barrel lacked some serious penetration at extended ranges due to the powder burn and the fact that the shorter barrels just cant push the bullets as fast. Not an issue with either the Blackout or the 7.62x 39.

    As one that has several of each in barrels from 8" on up...



    For serious use I'd go with Blackout. Expecting much from the little calibers in the little barrels is unrealistic. Of course the 7.62 x 39 is no slouch either.

    Forget the arm brace...its a gimmick. In actual use, it sucks. SBR the thing and be done with it.


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    I agree with hotguns 99% of the time, but I'll disagree here. I love my 10.5 pistol with a sig brace. Is a stock better? Yes. Does the brace suck? Nope.* It has some distinct advantages over a SBR too.

    *when used as advertised, I'll admit it sucks. But who actually does that anyway?
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    Hey punk. You didn't capitalize my name. Now go back and fix it or my one feeling will be hurt...

    And that arm brace just looks stoopid....
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    Senior Member Array 19Kvet's Avatar
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    Some of the more interesting things about a pistol with the arm brace as opposed to an SBR is that as a pistol, it can be concealed (slung under a long jacked) if needed, it can cross state lines without seeking permission from Uncle Sugar, it can be transported while loaded in a motor vehicle (rifles cannot be).

    It looks dumber than a normal stock but it avoids the dumb NFA laws.

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