Dialogue About SHTF Rifles - Page 2

Dialogue About SHTF Rifles

This is a discussion on Dialogue About SHTF Rifles within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've pondered this myself and changed my views a few times. An M1A and bolt rifle chambered for .308 would be a good combo. I ...

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Thread: Dialogue About SHTF Rifles

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    I've pondered this myself and changed my views a few times. An M1A and bolt rifle chambered for .308 would be a good combo. I would argue that the M1A would be just as effective as any other short or long range weapon in the hands of most shooters, so that could negate the need for the separate long range gun all togehter. Just as an option that sort of parallels your med and long range thoughts, as far as both being of the same caliber.

    For medium range you could choose some type of carbine chambered for the same caliber as your handgun. Something assumed to be readily available. I have to admit that for TEOTWAWKI 9mm has it's advantages in this area even though I don't like it.
    There are some carbines that even use magazines that interchange with handguns. .45 in a Thompson and a handgun would work too or if you've got the dough, an H&K carbine and matching pistol.

    My personal choice is to own most every concievable combination in the most common calibers, such as the ones you mentioned. NATO calibers and Soviet block calibers should always be there if you need to liberate or trade for ammo. Common US calibers like '06, .38, .357 are everywhere too.


    Just some thoughts for you to ponder if you want.

    Geezer: I'm with you on the .22 and shotgun for sure.
    Last edited by sgtD; April 19th, 2007 at 11:55 PM.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    I think there should be a SHTF rifle sticky, since we are always bringing the subject up again and again.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    The .22lr isn't an issue. I figured that went without saying for small game and what not.

    Some more interesting points were posted and I'll be mulling those over. Thanks everyone for posting so far.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    I am in the process myself to get a SHTF Rifle so thank you for the post!

    You are right it is your SHTF but I was wondering why you did not put a 12ga Shotgun in the mix??
    Timmy Jimmy

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  5. #20
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    I am in the process myself to get a SHTF Rifle so thank you for the post!

    You are right it is your SHTF but I was wondering why you did not put a 12ga Shotgun in the mix??
    While a shotgun is the great equalizer in close combat scenarios, the shotgun with it's low capacity and high weight makes the rifle a better choice for SHTF type work.

    The shotgun is great for most applications but not all.

    Even in military use it is only mainly used in house clearing or in units where close combat is severely likely. IE CAAT platoons, motar crews, and the assorted spec ops guys.

    While it should be included in all....collections, I would put a good rifle as higher priority.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    The problem with a " SHTF " gun sticky is that there is no one SHTF , so needs and equipment of our members are in no way interchangeable . For instance where i live 400 yards is a moderate shot , not close but by no means uncommon . This would not be the case in a forested area , or an urban area . I dont need to worry about a band of VCAs from the next neighborhood over comeing to loot , and for an urban member this might be a primairy concern . I can forage for small game easily some cannot . and finaly My areas SHTF wont involve an earthquake , or hurricane . Each member needs to think closely about the likely things that would constitute SHTF in the area they live in , and what roll they foresee a firearm filling given the likely circumstances . Then and only then can one realistically select guns as a part of an overall disaster preparedness scheme . I suspect the answers will be somewhat similar for many of us , but it is not really something that can be set as a one size fits all or one set fits all .

    My opinion on the subject YMMV.
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  7. #22
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    Just What Does This Old Guy Have?

    Well...

    Close up I rely on 3 .45's...and a custom coach gun...

    As the herd thins out I go to my Marlin 336SS 30-30...

    If I have to seek defense at a further distance I have my BushMaster AR-15 Flat Top with a EO Tech Halographic Scope...

    After that I go to hand grenades and land mines...

    Stay armed...stay safe!~

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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    I would personally go for the Gerand and a 30-06 bolt action. But I am more of a traditionalist really. Both rifles would be handy for multiple ranges. Now if you live near a city then probally something along the lines of the AK would be better. Can't beat the 12 guage though. Especially since it would be easy to change out any lighter shot loads with buckshot or anything else really without the use of tools and such.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    I like the shotgun for close range, but outside of the house imo I'd rather have the rifle, so if anything the shotgun is lower on the priority list.

    I grew up hunting rabbits with a .22lr because my grandfather wouldn't let me use a shotgun, so outside of bird hunting, I don't know that I'll need one in my kit.

    I guess in theory, I probably could eliminate the bolt gun and use a single M1A, but for some reason I'm adverse to using an autochucker for long range work.

    Btw, great post Redneck. I agree with you 100% that it's a really individual thing considering your area and what you're looking for in a SHTF kit.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  10. #25
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    Well have have a 12ga, M1 carbine, FAL, Mosin-Nagant, Winchester Mod 70 in 7mm mag, 22lr, 20ga and a Red Ryder BB gun.

    I have a stripped lower receiver for an AR that I am building.

    I want a 9mm carbine and a lever action .357 carbine as well as a manual action .308.

    These three calibers (9mm, .357 and .308) will be my main ammo stock piles. This will for cost on my part. The .308 is more versitle than the 5.56, plus the 5.56 will probably more availbe in a SHTF situation.

    The Mosins will be used to arm neighbors if I need to, I realize that I will probably get no more ammo for these than what I have when the SHTF. Likewise the M1 carbine will be hard to obtain ammo for even though I love the gun and my wife likes to shot it. I hope she will like a 9mm carbine as much.

    .30-30 and .30-06 are good because there is a lot of ammo avaible.

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  11. #26
    Member Array swedgin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    far better than a bolt action which in most cases came from a battle rifle design, but has been " nutered " for light weight and styling since hunters want pretty as much as tough . If you do the " twin " rifle for shtf you have a ready supply of spare parts to keep one running , what happens when the fireing pin or extractor breaks on that bolt ?
    Alright I'm your huckleberry. Exactly what has been "neutered"? Last I checked, the average hunting rifle reciever and bolt is exactly what is carried by LEO SWAT and Military snipers. Only Stocks and barrels get swapped, everything else is just tuned differently. I'll put a Rem 700 against any auto on reliability, and accuracy any day. The bottom line is that bolts have a well tuned purpose and the auto is simply a compromise in most categories for speed in putting bullets down range.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
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    My rifles for the same purpose are an AR15, PTR91, and a semi-auto .22lr.

    Since you're not a fan of the AR platform, switch out the AR with an AK, and you're good to go. Changing out the H&K clone with a FAL, or an M1A, or a AR10 for that matter, is just personal preference.

    A good close quarters carbine, a good battle rifle, and a .22lr 'game getter' with lots of ammo. Just about any of the very reliable firearms being discussed would be just fine, as long as you have the applications covered.

    Multiple rifles using the same ammo is a great idea, but to be effective, it'd have to be a serious caliber (.308 or 30-06). That limits your quantity. Mixing ammo generally means you can carry more, and practice more, since you have some lighter and cheaper calibers.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Ok Swedgin lets play lol .
    Last I checked, the average hunting rifle reciever and bolt is exactly what is carried by LEO SWAT and Military snipers. Only Stocks and barrels get swapped, everything else is just tuned differently.
    You really did not check far enough . The most common ( in the us ) action to base a " sniper " rifle on is the remmington 700. They start by mikeing out the receivers for trueness of the tube , and checking exact hardness of the heat treating . Only the truest receivers that fall within a specific rockwell range are even considered . Once you have grade sorted the receivers you then proceed to rebuild the entire thing truing up all bearing/mateing surfaces . The same is done with the bolt , many times reshaping and stress relieveing the extractor , installing heavy springs throughout , and re cutting the locking lugs . The barrel gets the same treatment truing up with attention to the locking lugs . Then on to the Trigger/safety ect..
    Once we take the basic ( sorted to meet spec ) 700 action and dump a grand or two worth of machine time , and hand work into it we have what is state of the art bolt action accuracy with proper optics and training of the operator . As often as not this rifle will live in a hard case and/or a heavily padded drag bag except when actually deployed at the hide . Precise You dammed right it is , Robust not really , It will fire a very limited # of rounds before being rebuilt/retuned by an armorer . The Battle rifle on the other hand is routinely drug thro the mud , neglected , and abused . They will typically still hit within 2 to 4 inches of point of aim at 200 yards ( with no tuneing at all ) , doing this rapidly and reliably with minimal matinence . When you tune for utmost accuracy you do loose a little reliability , which simply means clean your rifle , since it will no longer shoot 1 or 2k rounds and keep on plugging . If a part breaks on the battle rifle simply pull one out of another rifle and go on . This may well affect the match accuracy but its easily done in the field without hand fitting . The original battle bolts are built like tanks on the other hand with no regard for how it looks . Take the mosin , and the smle as examples , be honest now .. Have you ever seen anything as horrendously, functionally , sublime as either of them ? Heavy , Chunky , each is a downright eyesore in its own right , but both served well into the Viet Nam era . Ariska's are another example of a " bullet proof " action . But when we sporterise them we slim them down , replace chunky or un pleasing to the eye parts with others that look better , or offer some percieved advantage ( lighter fireing pins for faster lock time ect. ) and the 98 Mausor turns into the ruger mod 77 mkII or pre 64 Winchester . Fine rifles , but not necessarily up to the abuse the parent action in full dress would laugh at . That is what i mean by " nutured " commercial rifles . Sorry it was long , but i am not allways articulate when typing .
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  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmidkiff View Post
    My rifles for the same purpose are an AR15, PTR91, and a semi-auto .22lr.
    What a coincidence - that's exactly my setup as well.

    I did some serious thinking about this a few months ago, and this is what I determined (YMMV).

    1. I live in an urban region where the ability to place a long-range shot will probably not be common. This favors .223 over .308 for fear of over-penetration.

    2. Depending on the situation, I may be moving through a rural area or regions with predatory wildlife. This favors the .308 for its range and energy.

    3. I'm a small guy (reasonably strong, but I don't have a large frame). I can carry considerably more .223 ammo than .308.

    4. In a SHTF situation, either a .223 or .308 (or .40S&W for that matter) will likely turn any small game in a splatter of guts. Neither one is really suitable for small animals that I would like to eat later. .22LR on the other hand, is perfectly suited for that. It is also very light.


    The deciding factor is weight. Because of the chances of running into hostile wildlife if I end up on foot outside of the city, I decided I couldn't rely solely on .223. However, if I were to go just with the .308, I would give up a substantial number of rounds for the same weight.

    What I ended up with is this -> My AR is my primary rifle. It has the most ammo and can deal with most situations. In a situation it cannot deal with, I have my PTR, with less ammo. On top of this, my .22 and sufficient ammo weigh very little, and give me the flexibility to nab dinner.

    [edit]
    Almost forgot - I'm all for standardized calibers, but if you pick a single cartridge, it has to be good at everything you need it to do. When you add the extra requirement of being widespread and easy to come by, there really isn't much available for a real all-purpose cabliber.
    Last edited by Bob The Great; April 20th, 2007 at 10:43 PM. Reason: forgot something.

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    I didn't purposely buy anything for SHTF scenarios, but this is what I ended up with:

    Colt 6920 AR15
    DSA SA-58 Para FAL
    Auto Ordinance Thompson M1 (other than slaughtering tin cans, of little use)
    Benelli M1S90 (my HD gun)

    I live in eastern KS so the terrain varies, and I've also got 5 other scoped bolt-action big game rifles: .270, 30-06, .300 Win, 8X68 Mag, and .350 Rem Mag. I'vbe also got a couple .22s for the small game foraging stuff, buit if it was ever going to come to that I'd use traps.

    Chuck
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