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Shotgun Question

3K views 26 replies 13 participants last post by  Gary Brommeland 
#1 ·
Hi Folks!


I am not terrribly well versed in combat shotguns, so I've got a question for ya'll - there is an aftermarket barrel for 870's (made by Mossberg) that has a comp at the muzzle that sortal looks like a birdcage flash suppressor. It's called a "Breacher Barrel". I am tempted to put one on my gun (12 ga recoil w/ slugs is not a lot of fun) in an effort to tame the recoil a bit, but I am concerned about muzzle flash. I absolutely will not comp any handgun that I intend to employ as a defensive tool because most gunfights occur in low light and one muzzle flash, and you're gonna be blind long enough for a BG to do you in.

Since this thing looks to be made a lot like a flash suppressor, how much will it flash in low light when compared with a stock 18.5" cylinder bore? Anyone used one of these? Thanks for your time.
 
#6 ·
If recoil reduction is what you want

I would try a knoxx comp stock or one of the other the spec ops i shot on a 12 did reduce recoil quite a bit
I can vouch for the Knoxx stocks. I have a SpecOps stock on my 12ga, and it takes a big chunk of the oomph off of it (at least on my end), even with 3" shells.

To my knowledge, there aren't really any gas-based compensators made for shotguns. I'm not entirely sure why, but I've never seen one.
 
#5 ·
If we're thinking about the same thing then no. Like MattLarson said the breacher is used to breach a door. And from personal experience there is NO reduction in recoil. But once you learn to use one properly, they are LOTS of fun.
 
#9 ·
Gary, if you want comping, go Magnaport, and either the Knoxx stock or a Kick-Eeze recoil pad. I did Magnaport and Kick-Eeze on a Benelli M1 and it became almost excessively pleasant (400 rounds of #8 shot became a "blast" instead of 100 rounds being a"hammering".)
 
#10 ·
My BIASED vote for the ATI stock

That breaching mount will not do much to reduce either flash or recoil, and is not designed to!! It is a very neat way to reduce risk of incidental injury due to unpredictable shot deflection. Some departments I work with find the thing has been rendered obsolete by shotshells designed for breaching (compressed ceramic, frangible stuff and the like). Polyshok is issuing a very nice example of a high-velocity, low penetration round.

I gotta' give respect to Knoxx for making an innovative step, however, my customers (armorers, LE instructors, rangemasters, cops and soldiers) agree that the 'recoil suppression system' unit amounts to a greater risk of 'short stroking' the weapon. IMHO, anything that increases the chances of a jam in a high-risk situation becomes a variable I'd just as soon do without. Transitioning to sidearm is fine, but I'd rather hang on the the ol' 870 as long as possible. Further, in light of the fact that the system is only a pair of springs (there ARE stocks that feature very cool pneumatic piston designs by a company called Endine, but those are for AR rifles and the like), it is hard to understand why Knoxx is charging so much for it!

OK, so I work for ATI, and I'm supposed to say all that stuff. What I'll add is that I suggest a Pepsi challenge. Try the Knoxx, then try ours (and others, see the list below). You'll notice the basic material we use is a beefier, stronger synthetic than some others. Our glass-filled nylon stocks FEEL good in your hands. AND, we offer our stocks at a fraction of what ANY of the other guys can. We make everything in the US and guarantee it for life.

All said and done, there are really good things about other stocks, too. Look around at them all...Mesa Tactical, Tacstar, Choate and Speedfeed, for a good cross-section of what is out there. However, my thinking is that you can spend $400 on a milled aluminum stock for a $500 shotgun, but why would you?!! Conversely, you can spend something that approaches our cost, but wind up with ONE UGLY STOCK...again, why?

I'll drop the pitch, now, with a thank you and an apology to my forum mates who may have bristled at the blatant plug here. I hope it is clear that I offer information outside of a 'sales pitch', and invite dissenting views.
 
#18 ·
That breaching mount will not do much to reduce either flash or recoil, and is not designed to!! It is a very neat way to reduce risk of incidental injury due to unpredictable shot deflection. Some departments I work with find the thing has been rendered obsolete by shotshells designed for breaching (compressed ceramic, frangible stuff and the like). Polyshok is issuing a very nice example of a high-velocity, low penetration round.
Even with PolyShok or AirVon rounds a breaching barrel is still very useful. The end of a breaching barrel allows you to jam it into a door and position it to the right angle.
 
#12 ·
#13 ·
Additional note...

Regarding Mesa Tactical...

These guys are STELLAR! Their stuff is definitely a cut above anyone else's design, but you pay through the nose for 'em. Everything is milled aluminum, and incredibly durable. The really great thing about what this company is doing is that they make your shotgun milspec! With the adapter they make, you can slide your milspec AR-15 stock onto your shotgun!

Drawbacks : super pricey AND you'll need a different adapter to fit a Mossberg, Winchester or Remington. Ours fits all of 'em and it is MUCH less expensive.

I should mention that Mesa Tactical is now offering the Endine recoil system for the shotgun line. If you really think you need a recoil suppression system, go for that one, not the aforementioned spring system.
 
#14 ·
Scot,

The forum staff and management are not going to object to mentioning your product, unless that's ALL that you do. The kind of information that the members are looking for is in part "what do I need? Where can I find it?" kinda stuff, and I don't want you to feel as though you are gonna get jumped for mentioning a product that you are connected with. ( So long as you are also involved in other aspects of the forum as well.)

Personally, I want to thank you for your post - I was just about to order a Knoxx stock for my 870. However, in a defensive tool reliability is my number one consideration, and a stock that would encourage a "short stroke" is definately out of the question.

For my personal use, I am looking for a stock that is not going to give a shotgun the "assault weapon" look. God forbid that I am actually forced to use it, but if that does occur I want the jury to see "grandpa's ole shotgun" rather than "an evil assault weapon designed soley for the purpose of killing human beings". (A lot of prosecutors don't really care much about justice as opposed to their conviction rate.)

So, my question to you is this - what stock would you recommend for my purposes - a general purpose defensive shotgun that does not look "tactical"?

As far as recoil reduction goes, I'm 6-2 and 240 lbs and I can deal with the recoil. (I just don't like it much). However, my wife or teenage son might need to employ it, and I want it to be manageable for them. Reduced recoil loads are obviously part of the equation, but I think that porting is not. John Farnam points out that since shotguns have thin barrel walls to begin with, porting them makes them prone to cracking. I intend to send a barrel to Hans Vang to work his magic on, and I'd hate to have a 3-$400 barrel crack on me...

In any event, your knowledge of this subject matter seems to greatly exceed my own, so I am open to suggestions. Thank you for your time.
 
#15 ·
John Farnam points out that since shotguns have thin barrel walls to begin with, porting them makes them prone to cracking. I intend to send a barrel to Hans Vang to work his magic on, and I'd hate to have a 3-$400 barrel crack on me...
It would depend very much on how you use it. First, Remington and Winchester (now FN) have the thickest walled barrels made, unless you get the mil-spec Mossberg 590-A1. Benelli's M4 is actually the first heavy-wall, comparable to stock Rem & Win, they've made. Having said that, if you're going to knock the barrel around quite a bit (room clearing, in a cruiser, etc., etc.,) I might be concerned with porting of any kind. However, as a home-owner, and not one to use your shotty as a ram on a regular basis, it should not be much concern.:wink:

Secondly, as Gabe Suarez points out, we have developed a fascination for making "rifles" out of shotguns. The purpose of a SG is to spread shot, not make all the pellets go into a 1" hole at 25 yards. In context, I would like a Vang barrel in certain, limited, situations, but not on a HD shotgun. In that context, if you did have a barrel split, (if you were wise in the purchase), it would be a $99 Mossberg-made Rem aftermarket part.

If you don't want a mechanized stock, you could try:
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/st...9&title=100+STRAIGHT+DEAD+MULE+RECOIL+REDUCER
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1499&title=EDWARDS+RECOIL+REDUCER

I haven't used any of the stock-mounted devices, so..

The problem people usually have with the SG is the lift, more than the recoil, so for smaller people/people who aren't going to really work a SG handling system into their repertoir, porting, mated with a good pad, goes a long way. "Recoil" becomes a straight-back shove, instead of a "back-and-up".

FWIW, drilling ports can weaken a barrel, structurally, EDM (Magnaport) should not.
 
#16 ·
Thanks, and responses...

GB,

I'm glad my intent is clear. Thanks for the supportive words.

Your note indicates that whatever you decide upon for a replacement stock, WE DON'T MAKE IT! Ours will all lend themselves to the less-DA-friendly, aggressive image (even our Mossy Oak camo. ones for turkey hunters...they are pistol-grip, too). I giggle when people bristle at the word 'tactical', but I understand. I've tried to use more descriptive, less trendy verbiage. However, most people feel that 'tactical' translates to 'overpriced black gunstuff'.

I think you'd be best off with something from Speedfeed, since they have a traditional looking stock with some noteable upgrades (like the built-in shell compartment). I'm confident that Messrs. Vang and Farnham would approve of that, too. :image035:

http://www.speedfeedinc.com/?location=products

Otherwise, I'd be happy to send you the original that came with my new Marine P 870. It is a polymer, but not a pistol grip. It is somewhat abbreviated. I'm not sure of the exact measurements now, since I'm not at home today, but my guess is that it is about twelve inches of pull.

Finally, sending your stuff to Hans Vang is a GREAT idea. While I've only spoken to him briefly (and that specifically a job that he did with our stock on it), I've shot examples of his work and I am blown away. He is a true innovator and you won't be disappointed. On the other hand, Mr. Farnham has forgotten more than I'll ever know about shotguns. I would defer to his expertise on my best day. Both of these fellow are some of the most approachable, informed dudes you'll ever be glad you called to ask questions of! I don't expect that one opinion necessarily negates the other, either. Perhaps the cryo-process that Mr. Vang uses toughens things up to prevent the brittleness?

ASK!
 
#17 ·
I can appreciate what Scot Van said about doing a challenge. I've never seen or handled a stock from ATI....I'm assuming they're top notch. But, I installed my Knoxx Spec Ops stock and power pak last friday evening. I have to say I'm thoroughly pleased with the design and execution.

I've not had the time to test out my 590-A1 yet....but I'm getting pretty itchy. I also had the barrel ported, forcing cone polished along with the barrel and the trigger tweaked a bit. My hope is....that between the porting and the stock....my wife won't be too intimidated to use it for its intended purpose.

Good Luck....Kick plenty of tires as it were...and decide what's best for you.

Wayne
 
#21 ·
I don't know about the BREACHER. But I do know a bit about shotguns. A great way to reduce felt recoil is the lengthen the forcing cone. The forcing cone acts basically as a funnel, helping guide the wad and shot column into the bore and out the barrel. By lengthening the forcing cone you reduce the resistance of the wad and shot column when entering the bore and therefore also reduce the felt recoil. Ask any serious shotgunner about it. Had this done on our sporting clays guns, also our cowboy guns. It works. A good recoil pad on a properly fitted stock also helps. A recoil reducer mounted in the stock will also help a bit. Any decent gunsmith who works on shotguns should be able to do all this for you. I think the forcing cone work cost around $60, when we had done years ago.
 
#22 ·
I'll bring my couple of pennies into this party.

I have a Mossberg 500 that I bought as a LEO trade-in about 2 months ago. It came with ghost ring sights and the Mossberg speed-feed stock on it. I took it to the range and put some Federal LEO low-recoil slugs down it. For my first time firing a 12 ga shotgun... it was... interesting. I short stroked it all over the place and eventually ended up putting about 50 rounds downrange total between myself and 2 other shooting buddies. The 10 or so I put downrange definately left a calling card on my shoulder. It wasn't horrible, but as a gun to be used as an HD shotgun for myself and my wife, the wife was just NOT going to go for that much recoil.

Fast forward to about 4 weeks ago. After waiting for AWHILE, I finally got my SpecOps stock. Yes, it does give the gun a "tactical" look to it but for the recoil reduction that it gave me, the tac look is more than worth it. On the range with the SpecOps, full house 00 buck gave quite a bit LESS recoil than the low-recoil slugs fired with the speed-feed. It definately made a believer out of me. My wife can fire this shotgun without any problems whatsoever. She would not have been able to do that with the speed-feed. I'd much rather have the "tac" look and know my wife will go for that shotgun if she needs to than have the "grandpa " look and know that it will sit in the closet if the SHTF one day.

The piece of mind I have now is worth 10 times what I paid for the stock. Is it the end all be all? Nothing ever is, but for me it fills a role that needed to be filled.
 
#23 ·
The "breacher" or breaching barrel is designed for just that. When using a breaching charge (or in a pinch, whatever you have) you want to be about 2-3" off the door when you fire. This prevents anything from getting lodged in the barrel, and reduces the chances for frag coming straight back at you. Since its not easy to do this after running up to a door in full gear under stress, the breaching barrel was developed to make life easier. Since the barrel ends before the "muzzle brake" you get the same standoff distance without having to keep the gun off the door.

This type of "muzzle brake" will not reduce recoil on a shotgun.

Sure would look scary though....

Austin
 
#25 ·
Gary- the Knoxx system does work and as said fit of the stock is important. You might take a look at a 870 in 20 ga. The frame is smaller and the wife and children may be more comfortable with it.

I know, I know it's not the almighty 12 w/OObuck. I would rather have someone shoot a 22 really well then miss with a 44
 
#26 ·
One of the noticeable things about the recoil reducing is that my 12 shoots almost as soft as my .410. It's got more push but it's nowhere near what it was with a factory stock and buttpad. My wife had no problem putting rounds on target with the 00 buck full loads using the SpecOps. I never would have even given her the shotgun to shoot with those loads and a factory stock. She would have hated me for life if I had done that to her! :biggrin2:
 
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