This is a discussion on .30 Carbine within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I wrote this up as a topic starter for another forum. The .30 Carbine cartridge should have a mention on DefensiveCarry as it makes a ...
October 24th, 2007 10:06 AM
I wrote this up as a topic starter for another forum. The .30 Carbine cartridge should have a mention on DefensiveCarry as it makes a pretty cool cartridge. I confess to championing the good ol' .30 Carbine.
A Sixty-Year Family History With the .30 Carbine
A tall, tanned, young sailor was playing football dockside with some buddies at Pearl Harbor late one Sunday afternoon in early summer of 1945 where Patrol Craft Escort 845 was moored. The small ship was being refitted for the proposed invasion of Tokyo. He’d been transferred to the PCE from his former ship, Patrol Craft 598 when it caught fire while in port at Pearl Harbor, and was severely damaged. He’d assisted in extinguishing the blaze after several of the crew had abandoned ship. It was pretty exciting. An oil fire had spread from the ship to the surface of the harbor but he didn’t see any need to abandon his post. After all, the ship was tied up and if things had gotten too hot he could just step ashore across the low railing of the ship. He made friends readily, with his open honest personality developed in rural Texas during his Depression era childhood, so easily made the transition to his new ship and was now enjoying some free time, tossing a football with new friends on the asphalt dock.
As the afternoon wore on a Marine joined the group of sailors horsing around with the football. He announced that he had a rifle and ammunition he might be willing to sell if anyone was interested. He got the rifle out of a canvas case and it proved to be an MI Carbine. He allowed that he’d take twenty dollars for it. The sailor from Texas was interested in this new weapon which was almost never seen by civilians. It was such a compact handy little rifle and he thought it would be a lot of fun to show his brothers and friends back home. He liked guns and shooting and thought the little rifle would be a nice self defense weapon for civilians and handy for hunting game up to deer. He’d never hunted deer and knew nothing of ballistics. His hunting uncle had a Winchester Model 1894 rifle in .30 WCF with a red-painted stock and fore end. If one .30 would take deer any .30 would do. He was not apt to squander his pay, generally sending most of it back to his parents in Texas, and he had plenty saved up. He paid the twenty bucks to the Marine who told a story of the rifle being a battlefield pick-up on some far away island. The ship’s captain, a lieutenant in rank, was accommodating and gave him permission to bring the little carbine aboard ship and stow it in the ship’s armory along side of the 1903 Springfield rifles with which the ship was equipped.
Once at sea, the M1 Carbine was broken out and proved to be a hit with the crew. They shot at seagulls, sharks, and once brought down an albatross. The carbine stayed topside most of the time, even getting some gray naval paint on its stamped steel butt plate from a spill during a painting detail.
PCE’s were small ships. Displacing 903 tons, 184 feet long, with a beam of 33 feet it was no match for the Japanese submarines that preyed on the convoys the PCE was assigned to protect. Everyone on board knew the hull could be pierced with a .30-06. With its screws configured for tug duty, in the event that it had to be called upon to tow a much larger ship to safety, it was no match for a surfaced Jap sub in speed. Its 3-inch main gun was inferior to the larger 5.5-inch deck gun with which most Jap subs were fitted. The sub could simply shell the PCE to pieces from out of range. It was equipped with torpedoes and depth charges, and with these it could give a submerged Jap sub a measure of grief.
Big bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Tokyo invasion was off, and surrender documents were signed aboard the battleship Missouri on September 2, 1945. After a short refit in Pearl Harbor, the PCE was sent to the Aleutians for an assignment as a weather ship, this being the days before satellite weather observation. The sailor with the carbine spent some months serving as coxswain, enduring the boredom of patrolling within a few square miles of sea while the ship radioed back weather information.
Mustering out came in late summer of 1946. Happily the sailor broke the carbine down and packed it in his sea bag, tagging it for 3224 Avenue J Fort Worth, Texas and sent it home ahead of his own arrival. No one disturbed the contents of that sea bag and it arrived in time for the sailor’s older brother to assemble the carbine, and shoot up some of the ammo before his brother arrived home.
The sailor was my father, and he’s now had that carbine for 60 years. It’s still in outstanding condition, having all early features excepting for the I-cut stock. It’s a dead stock Quality Hardware & Machine Company contract rifle. Well, dead stock except it still has that gray paint on its butt plate. Quality HMC used supplies of parts made by other prime contractors so this one wears a Rock-Ola barrel, which is common with the Quality HMC guns.
One of my earliest memories of firearms is connected with the .30 Carbine and is not a good one. In 1960 I was three years old when I got a whipping for sneaking a peek at the M1 Carbine standing in the corner of my father’s bedroom closet. In the summer of 1963 while at the lake cabin on Lake Leon my dad allowed me to shoot the rifle for the first time, the first centerfire rifle I ever fired. It seemed huge, was very loud, and I needed help to hold it, but I was hooked on Carbines ever after.
Ten years later I was roaming the wilds of Lake Leon, having become old enough to drive myself out there. My dad’s carbine tagged along, and with it I discovered the joys of “campaign firing”. My cousin (who also had one of his dad’s carbines) and I burned up a lot of ammo on that first trip we made out there after we got our driver’s licenses. Trees, rocks, cactus, armadillos, and bunny rabbits all received a hail of carbine fire. The .30 Carbine cases may still be found scattered all over the home place from that trip long ago.
Origin, Purpose, and Military Use Of the .30 Carbine
The .30 carbine was developed on the eve of World War II by Winchester at the request of the War Department. The original 1938 US Army request for such an arm was shelved for a couple of years. It was originally though the light rifle would be preferable as an alternative to the handgun to arm rear echelon troops or personnel who, because of their duties found it inconvenient to carry the issue rifle. Several designs were considered with Winchester producing the most viable weapon. Their weapon utilized a gas tappet developed by Winchester employee David (Carbine) Williams. Their design went from a hand made prototype to an improved model suitable for testing in just 34 days. This improved design proved to be overwhelmingly superior to other designs and was adopted as Carbine, Caliber .30 M1 on September 25, 1941. The Ordnance Department had set the parameters for the type of cartridge before any rifle designs were reviewed. The cartridge has been said to have been developed from the .32 Winchester Self Loading round of 1905 but I can’t see that the .30 Carbine round and the .32 WSL are similar ballistically, nor are the case dimensions similar.
The carbine was produced in huge quantities and saw much wider service then originally envisioned. It found its way to the front line and assumed the role that properly belonged to the M1 Garand. It became popular with paratroopers and a folding stock version, the M1A1, was developed. The paratroopers made use of both versions of the M1 Carbine. Later in the War, an automatic version of the carbine was developed, designated the M2. A bayonet with attachment was added to the barrel of the M1 Carbine just before war’s end. Hostilities on the Korean peninsula called the carbine back to service in 1950 were it served, again along beside the M1 Garand. Carbines armed many airbases into the 1960’s and military advisors toted them in Southeast Asia in the early stages of our involvement there. They were provided to the Vietnamese whose small stature made it an appropriately convenient weapon.
The cartridge has been embraced and vilified since day One. Some soldiers loved the rifle and even lauded the performance of the round. Some rued the day they took up with the Carbine and found it to be unacceptably lacking in stopping power against a determined enemy. Like many military cartridges the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
The .30 Carbine “Mustered Out”
I’ve always had a high regard for the .30 Carbine round and have good luck with it. As a field cartridge it has proved adequate for critters up to 40-50 lbs. in weight. My dad never took his gun deer hunting when I was a kid because he never felt that he had the time or spare funds. He did lend his Carbine out to several friends who took deer with it. My brother-in-law Bo has taken five head of big game with his commercial Iver Johnson Plainfield .30 Carbine and experienced good performance with the cartridge. All but one were Texas whitetail deer and one was a aoudad ram. One of the deer struggled for 50 yards before expiring, but the rest pretty well dropped in their tracks. Bo is an excellent shot and these animals were properly hit, which perhaps says more about accurate shot placement than the .30 Carbine’s capabilities. It’s a bit of a stunt to take deer sized animals with a carbine.
As a kid I recall a time when my father was making war against a pack of feral dogs that was hanging around our place. One night he got after them with the M1 Carbine rather than a shotgun. I ran out of the house behind him in order to “see the show”. He ran down the hill a little ways from the house with the rifle and a dodgy D-cell flashlight. He stopped and raised the rifle with the flashlight held against the forearm. The carbine cracked and a feral dog was laid low from about 30 yards away, shot through the head with some Korean War Lake City ‘52 surplus ball ammo. I had not even seen the dog. I recall the crunching sound the dog’s shattered skull made when my dad rolled it beneath his foot. I supposed those FMJ’s hit pretty hard at that range to have shattered the dog’s skull like that.
I like the .30 Carbine so well that it represents my weapon of choice for my household defense. A Carbine loaded with a 15-round magazine of factory hollowpoints stands ready for instant use. Very maneuverable in hallways or stairwells, it provides plenty of short range punch in a compact, user-friendly package. I have a number of the 30 round “banana clip” magazines but consider them unwieldy, making the Carbine feel clumsy. Also, the 15-round magazine has the proper “look”.
After marriage, I bummed my dad’s Carbine for a few years but eventually obtained a carbine of my own, a worn but correct Underwood with a 10-43 barrel date. The finish may be worn but it is in good mechanical condition and so reliable it’s boring. That is another feature that makes me trust the Carbine for “repelling boarders” in my home. I’ve had the opportunity to shoot a number of carbines and they function dependably. Most Carbines are found with good bores unless they are re-imported weapons. U. S. Military ammunition was always loaded with noncorrosive primers, which helped preserve their bores to our benefit today. For the Carbine owner who intends to make serious use of his weapon, it is advised to function test it with any type of bullet other than the original full metal jacketed round nose load. My Underwood likes anything I feed it but my dad’s Quality HMC balks if fed anything but FMJ round nosed bullets. His Carbine feeds soft nose bullets fairly well but I wouldn’t depend on it for defense as occasional jams occur. Hollowpoints or flatnose bullets in his carbine? Don’t even go there! With FMJ it just will not jam. I’ve seen other carbines that displayed preferences and some that fed anything.
October 24th, 2007 10:07 AM
.30 Carbine continued
I handload for the .30 Carbine and have for many years. A limited range of powders is suitable for it. I’ve not revisited any propellants introduced since the late 70’s so can’t say how well they perform. Some look quite suitable and I hope a forum reader will share his experience with some of them. My favorite .30 carbine powder is H110, which I believe was originally designed for it. I’ve seen a cousin crack the gas tappet on a DCM Winchester produced carbine with hot handloads of 2400 so don’t push loads beyond prudence. The carbine is not an expensive gun to shoot if one handloads for it. I always find handloading rewarding anyway.
Carbine accuracy is as variable as Carbine preference for bullet styles. My carbine is capable of 1 1/2-inch, 5-shot groups at 100 yards from the bench while my dad’s will only print about 4 inch groups. Back when the Blue Sky imports were coming into the country for cheap, I was able to shoot an import carbine manufactured by IBM. It was funky looking with its light gray finish and was externally rough as a cob, but I shot a 1-inch group with it at 100 yards. I know this was a fluke because I couldn’t duplicate it with several other five shot groups fired that afternoon, but all were inch and a half if I did my part. The detachable top tang and the tightness of its retaining screw seem to have some bearing on the accuracy of the weapon. Some carbine stocks seem to be amply inletted yet perhaps due to usage and stock swapping both within and without of the military, carbines will be found that fit loosely in their stocks. These MAY exhibit less accuracy if this screw is tightened excessively to compensate for that looseness. This is only my personal theory. If a person can obtain 2 ˝ inch groups at 100 yards he’s got an outstanding carbine.
I have shot the M1 Carbine in high-power competition on a couple of occasions just for fun. All shooting was done at 100 yards using reduction targets. . One occasion was for a special Carbine match in which my wife also competed. 19 shooters fired their M1 Carbines. My wife placed 3rd. She was vexed at me as she would have placed 2nd except for the fact that I also entered the match and took first place with a score of 440/500. I was pleased as I had only made use of the thin issue web sling and the rifle is very light and whippy when fired offhand.
The M1 Carbine is the .30 Carbine cartridge’s reason for being but the round has been utilized in a few commercial designs that have been manufactured in quantity in some cases. Universal carbines were made for some years in good numbers to help keep up with demand for rifles of this type. Universal also marketed a short-barreled, pistol gripped variation called the Enforcer which was sold as a handgun. The Universal carbines, while externally resembling the “real deal” military original, differed internally. Conventional wisdom of the era considered these guns to be inferior to the original. Iver Johnson also marketed a replica carbine called the Plainfield. I’m uncertain if this was built on the old Universal design but was fairly popular in the mid 1980’s. My brother-in-law has one of these, which has been serviceable for him for 20 years now. Marlin produced its scarce Model 62 Lever action rifle in .30 Carbine (also in .256 Winchester Magnum) from 1962 To 1965. These have a bit of a cult following among Marlin collectors. One of the presidents of the Cleburne Gun Club had one of these little rifles and I fired it on one occasion. It was well made and accurate. I’ve always wondered if the Model 62’s chambering in .30 Carbine was a design outgrowth of an early 60’s military contract for Marlin to produce replacement barrels for M1 Carbines. There was an Auto Mag .30 Carbine auto pistol produced for a few years though I never saw one. Thompson Center Contender fans can purchase used .30 Carbine barrels for their handguns.
The most popular commercial .30 Carbine firearm has to be the Ruger Blackhawk so chambered. These have been available for many years now. My dad bought one as a companion piece for his rifle years ago and I have the fun of playing with it on occasion. They are a worthwhile firearms investment for those who want a sturdy, low recoiling, flat shooting revolver. The single action design makes a good home for the cartridge which headspaces on the case mouth. Ejection is simple, facilitated by punching the empties out with the ejection rod a la Colt SAA. The cartridge operates at around 40,000 psi so the Blackhawk offers simplicity and strength to handle it. The .30 Carbine Blackhawk is the handloader’s friend, offering a platform for more experimentation and tinkering than the original military rifle can provide. The Blackhawk, a T/C Contender, or one of the scarce Marlin rifles would be the natural home for the cast bullet shooter who wants to mold bullets for the .30 Carbine. I’m not interested in firing cast lead bullets through my M1 Carbine due to potential fouling of the gas system.
The .30 Carbine offers a little less than 1000 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. This would seem to place it along side of the .44 Magnum on paper. Paper ballistics don’t tell the whole story of cartridge performance and most of us would rightfully rank the .44 Magnum handgun ahead of the .30 Carbine in effectiveness. An M1 Carbine more properly could more properly be described as similar in performance to a .357 Magnum. For hunting or defense use, expanding bullets are desirable. The FMJ military loading can offer surprising penetration and is said to exhibit extremely stable characteristics in striking and traversing a target. One of the writers for the gun rags wrote up a “test” supposedly debunking the myth of brush busting a few years back. He rounded up all the usual cartridge suspects having the reputation of being brush busters along with other hunting favorites and concluded that no cartridge really effectively cuts brush. He was surprised to find that the cartridge that was most effective in traveling through his dowel rod contraption and impacting the target with some semblance of accuracy was the .30 Carbine followed by the M193 ball 5.56 NATO. His “nontest” was similar to BMc’s contrived tests so be skeptical. Side note: I strongly dislike the notion of shooting through an intervening screen of brush at game. Pass on the shot until you have a clear view of your target. Always be certain of your target. No exceptions! I will brook no argument on this point. Hunting is a sport, game animals deserve respect, and once unleashed, bullets cannot be called back. You aren’t that desperate to bag your quarry. People die each year because hunters fire at brush. ‘Nuff said.
The .30 Carbine offers good velocity and flat trajectory when fired from a revolver. My limited experience indicates that expanding bullets expressly designed for .30 Carbine don’t really open up well when launched from a handgun. A .357 Magnum revolver offers the same velocities and its bullets typically expand better. My non-tests include firing into rows of one-gallon plastic jugs full of water, dry Fort Worth phone books, and the earth of the berm behind the target board. A handloader would be free to experiment with component bullets to remedy this malady. Small game and critters still drop readily to a .30 Carbine handgun. Too much is made of bullet expansion and a .30 Carbine handgun such as the Ruger Blackhawk is a good choice for many handgunning chores.
Ballistic Chart For the .30 Carbine
Factory Loads (rifle)
Remington 110 gr. FMJ: MV 1911 fps, ME 890
PC ’43 (Kings Mills Ordnance Plant) military ball 110 gr. FMJ: MV 1980 fps, ME 956
Lake City ’52 military ball 110 gr. FMJ: MV 1952 fps, ME 928
Factory Loads (handgun)
Remington: MV 1338 fps, ME 436
PC ’43; MV 1367 fps, ME 455
Lake City ’52: MV 1409 fps, ME 483
Speer Plinker 100 gr. Soft Nose: H110: MV 2029 fps, ME 912
Sierra FMJ RN 110 gr.: H110: MV 1902 fps, ME 882
Sierra FMJ RN 110 gr.: Win 296: MV 1870 fps, ME 852
Sierra FMJ RN 110 gr.: IMR 4227: MV 1685 fps, ME 692
Sierra FMJ RN 110 gr.: 2400: MV 1813 fps, ME 801
Sierra Flat Nose HP 125 gr.: H110: MV 1794 fps, ME 894
Sierra Flat Hose HP 125 gr.: IMR 4227: 1563 fps, ME 678
Speer Plinker 100 gr.: H110: MV 1416 fps, ME 444
Sierra FMJ 110 gr.: H110: MV 1382 fps, ME 469
Sierra FMJ 110 gr.: Win 296: MV 1358 fps, ME 449
Sierra FMJ 110 gr.: IMR 4227: MV 1196 fps, ME 348
Sierra FMJ 110 gr.: 2400: MV 1334 fps, ME 434
Sierra FN HP 125 gr.: H110: MV 1424 fps, ME 563
Sierra FN HP 125 gr.: IMR 4227: MV 1237, ME 425
Cast Lyman 130 Gr. Lead RN: Unique: 1275 fps, ME 468
Velocities taken with Oehler Model 12 Chronograph
Rifle used: Underwood mfg’d M1 Carbine
Handgun used: Ruger Blackhawk with 7 ˝ inch barrel
Contractors Who Produced the M1 Carbine, numbers produced by each contractor, and percentage of total production by each contractor.
Inland: 2,632,097, 43%
Winchester: 828,059, 13.5%
Underwood: 545,616 8.9%
Saginaw Steering Gear: 517,212, 8.5%
National Postal Meter: 413,017, 6.8%
Quality Hardware Machine Corp.: 359,666, 5.9%
International Business Machines: 346,500, 5.7%
Standard Products: 247,100, 4%
Rock-Ola: 228,500, 3.7%
Irwin-Pederson: approximately 1000, .00016%
I’ve heard it said that some troops burned M1 Carbines like cord wood for warmth in the cold Korean winters. I’ve not seen this validated. If true, then this use of the M1Carbine fell outside the War Department’s original intent. The M1 Carbine and its cartridge has been used and misused many times throughout its 65-year existence. Its original purpose was to provide personal defense capabilities to military personnel. For this purpose it makes a viable alternative to the handgun. As a front line battle cartridge the .30 Carbine falls short in power and range. It won the popularity contest with many rifle-carrying soldiers due to its lightweight and compact design. Its performance against enemy troops was a matter of luck, and that luck was not always good. Though it has successfully taken large game animals it is too underpowered to reliably anchor them, therefore it has no place in the big game hunter’s battery of rifles. It is still a cartridge design that can be quite useful for hunting game up to deer, informal target shooting, or personal protection, that protection being its original purpose. It is a bit of U. S. weapons history that still may be enjoyed by shooters everywhere.
October 24th, 2007 11:11 AM
I love the Carbine. Nothing handles as well as they do. Light and to the point almost naturally. I don't know many service weapons outside of it that served well so long. They served all through WWII and well into the Vietnam war. Even the Garand had been phased out by that time. And even serve today in some areas of other country's. Most produced US military firearm in history I believe they are.
One point on the history thing though. I don't think Carbine Williams ever worked for Winchester directly. He did hold the patent on the piston design and was paid royalties for its use. However he developed it and Winchester just employed it on the design of the Carbine. I think he did submit a carbine design but it was not chosen over the one Winchester developed. They did use his piston though. He was independent from what I have read. He was a convicted Murderer. He was involved in a shooting during a raid on his moonshine still and a ATF agent was killed. Whether or not Williams pulled the trigger remains a mystery, but after a first trial that resulted in a hung jury, he plead guilty to avoid another trial and potential death sentence. He developed his Gunsmith skills while doing work for the Sheriff's department there as an inmate and became known as a great smith. At least this is the history of it as I know it. I could be wrong and I suspect there are many slightly differing accounts of this whole thing.
October 24th, 2007 12:17 PM
Great article and an interesting read.
I once owned a 30.Carbine AMT pistol. It was built on the same principal as the Colt Goverrnment model but had a lot of changes to it and was'nt near as pretty. That was a hard shooting little gun that had a horrendous muzzle blast...worse than a hot loaded .357 but it was accurate.
A friend on mine had one in a Ruger Blackhawk, they made a limited run of them for awhile. That too was very loud and with military ammo it had quite the fireball coming from it. He also had one in a Contender barrel that he had one several competitions with. That was his favorite shooter. I have shot it and it would put the bullet where ever you aimed it, the recoil and blast wasnt near as bad, perhaps because of the longer barrel.
I remember back in the day you could all the .30 carbine ammo you could stand for next to nothing and I think that the availability of the ultra cheap surplus ammo was the reason that several companys produced the various .30 Carbine guns. Like all others, that source has pretty well dried up.
hecks...the next step towards registration and confiscation.
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October 24th, 2007 12:56 PM
I still have an AMT automag in 30 carbine and as Hotguns said, the muzzle blast is something to behold. Sometimes I take the M1 (winchester brand) and the automag out for a day of plinking. They make a great combination.
We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!
October 24th, 2007 01:10 PM
Aww man, I read that whole thing expecting pics of the ol' gun and that gray paint!
October 24th, 2007 01:15 PM
I have a Blue Sky import (Saginaw) and yes it is fun! I also have the Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .30 Carbine with a 7 ½” bbl, also a lot of fun. I used to pop 1 liter coke bottles at 100 yards with it. The one complaint I have about the Ruger is that the spent cases can be hard to get out of the cylinder because if expansion, even with the ejection rod.
My carbine gives me about a 4 – 6” group at 100 yards from a bench without a rest. I keep saying that I need to try it with a proper rest but just never have. I am sure I could cut the group size in half with a good solid rest.
For self defense or for small to mid sized game at less that 100 yards, definitely a contender. The only complaint I have is that the ammunition is not as readily available as it used to be. Sportsman’s Warehouse is the only place I have seen it lately. A weapon is only of use if you can get the ammo for it!
October 24th, 2007 01:53 PM
I keep one next to my bed. I have mounted a laser on the bayonet lug. It shoots great and is very dependable. I think it's perfect for HD.
If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he will sit in a boat and drink beer.
October 24th, 2007 01:59 PM
Cphillip, you may be right about David Williams. He gets a mention in several reference works and old gun rags that I have but I don't know if the nature of his exact relationship with Winchester was revealed. One article I have mentions that there was a biography published about him. I've looked for a copy but haven't found one. I've read that he served time for murder but you've provided more detail about the incident than I knew.
I'll see if I can take some photos of my dad's M1Carbine this weekend, complete with paint, and post them here. I need to record some photographs of it anyway. It's much nicer than mine. I've tried before to dig up a couple of photos taken of him and the Carbine on the fantail of his ship. One has an albatros featured. I'm the one who took the photos out of his album and mislaid them. I'd hoped to make a photo of him holding it similarly 60 years later back when I originally wrote this.
It'd be fun to spend the afternoon playing with one of the Automag .30 carbine pistols and the Ruger Blackhawk.
October 24th, 2007 03:13 PM
The M1 carbine has become my main HD long gun.
A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.
October 24th, 2007 03:27 PM
I've got the hankerin' for one of the Auto Ordance (Kahr) M1 Carbines. They're milspec (all USGI parts will fit) and with the prices of "authentic" USGI guns going through the roof...I just want a quality shooter to enjoy.
Thanks for the story & sharing your various successful handloads. I believe my wife will find the little carbine quite comforting should a situation develope when I'm not at home.
There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.
October 24th, 2007 06:21 PM
If ya'll get a chance and want to, come on over to this Carbine dedicated forum where we could use a few more Carbine fanatics. Some good info is accumulating here
As to ammo, Check out Georgia Arms. They have a pretty good price on their Canned Heat .30 carbine. Canned heat is new ammo lose packed in metal ammo cans. It is Lake City brass and shoots well. Currently running $132.50 for 500 rounds or $255 for 1000 rounds... lose... in an ammo can.
October 24th, 2007 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by ghost tracker
Actually they are not Mil Spec in several areas and some parts won't fit. And if you carefully look around (like CMP) you can get a real USGI for around what these are selling. Oddly enough I see the Kahrs going for like $600 when CMP is getting $500 to $600 for a real GI. Sure... a bit worn but many of them are cleaned up nicely and give years of shooting. I do think if you could get a AO for cheapish that would be a nice shooter. I had some interest in doing a "Patrol Rifle" out of one if I could find one real cheap.
Last edited by cphilip; October 24th, 2007 at 07:46 PM.
October 27th, 2007 12:41 PM
October 27th, 2007 01:01 PM
Many thanks for the link to the great little Carbine forum! I think I'll mosey on over.
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