Grouping: Set My Mind At Ease, Please

[Joshua M. Smith]

Hello,

With my rifle, open sights, I can hold 1.5" to 2" at 50 yards. Though I like all my bullet holes touching, I recognize this may not be possible.

I am wondering what you can do with a battle designed, open sighted rifle at 50 yards, standing, using a field implemented rest like a tree or something along those lines.

I'm not talking about benching a rifle. I can make the bullet holes touch if I do bench it, but I'm wondering where I am on the bell curve when it comes to shooting while standing up.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[aus71383]

You're doing just fine. Most military rifles in their top condition will do no better than 3 MOA. If you can shoot from an improvised rest like that, you can hit a man sized target at several hundred yards easily...what more do you want?

Austin

[Joshua M. Smith]

Well, to be the best I guess. I was invited to join a military rifle team in competition when they start back up again next year, and I want to win. I won't be breaking the stock over my knee if I lose or anything like that, but I'm asking for Mojo peep sights for Christmas.

Put simply, I want to be able to outshoot the rifle, not the other way around.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[HotGuns]

I've been in a few military rifles contests and the target was nothing special at all...just an 8x10 sheet of paper at 100 yards using stock sights. Ten shots were fired, 3 kneeling,3 standing,3 prone and 1 however you wanted to.

You'ds be susprised at the "groups" fired. Often 8 or 9 shots on the paper would win it. If all 10 were on it than group size won. It was'nt often that 10 shots would be on the paper though.

Most battle rifles have pretty coarse sights. The trick is to get the rifle sighted so that the top or yuour front sight rests at the bottom of the paper.That will give a consistant sight hold point. The rest is just basics. Sounds easy enough I know, but in real life its harder than you think. Sounds like you are doing great at 50. If you can do that good at 100 you should have no problems.

[Joshua M. Smith]

This is shot at either 200 yards or 400 yards.

I have a Mojo peep sight ordered for Christmas. I hope it's legal - it should put me up there with the M1917 and M1 anyway...

Thanks,

Josh <><

[flagflyfish]

Hey Josh,
The only thing I might suggest is to wrap the sling of your rifle around your forearm, it will give you a three point hold on the rifle. It helped me a lot when standing for a shot. 1 1/2" groups aren't anything to sneeze at!! Rex

[blueyedevil]

No easy answers to the questions you're asking. A match grade M-14 or M-16 is generally a battle designed rifle, and put together with match ammo/handloads is certainly capable of sub MOA accuracy, in the hands of a world class shooter, the holes in the paper will probably be very close to the accuracy potential of the rifle. With a whole lot of practice you ought to be able to get relatively close to the accuracy attained on the bench in the most stable of positions. What exactly the rifle is capable of, depends on the individual rifle and equipment used.

[SonofASniper]

My first question is what rifle is this? Your Mosin?

Sounds like you are very well all ready. If you are questioning your rifle then you should try it out on a bench rest setup where it can be locked in place and maintain the same POA. That will tell you how well your rifle is grouping, though if you are maintaining this kind of grouping with a modified rest or freestanding all ready, then your rifle should be good.

After that, practice, practice, seek out training, practice, practice, get some more instruction, practice, practice, practice, consider a reloading setup, practice, practice, practice, and practice some more. Oh and by the way, practice a lot.

If you have aspirations of being the best, you need to understand that the best put more serious rounds down the range per year than most people do in a decade, and shooting is not all of the training they do.

[Joshua M. Smith]

I do need to get back in shape. I used to smoke and drink caffeine; now I do neither. I gained weight though when I quit the stimulants and I've been fighting to get it off. Martial arts is helping and I'd like to do more, but a bad knee is keeping me from running. I walk plenty.

I send around 100 rounds downrange per week.

Truthfully, I feel held back by my sights. I just have a coarse sight picture.

I plan to replace the front post with a finishing nail. That should give me a nice sharp point to balance the target on. I'm also hoping for a Mojo replacement peep sight for Christmas.

We'll see what happens - might go ahead and do the front sight replacement even before I get the better rear sight.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[bmcgilvray]

You're getting the most out of your sights now. Perhaps finer sights will help the rifle reach its potential.

What about the trigger? A nice trigger really helps.

[Joshua M. Smith]

Ray,

I'd like a target trigger but I'm not dishing out what they want for one right now!

I did stone the sear faces. It helped tremendously. Before I did good to keep the shots on an 8.5x11" sheet of paper!

Thanks,

Josh <><

[aus71383]

Try blackening your front and rear sight with the smoke from a lighter.

Are you using a loop sling? It will help you tremendously if it is allowed.

Austin

[Joshua M. Smith]

I went shooting today, 20 rounds of military surplus Czech.

I decided to experiment by wearing my glasses, which I don't even need to drive. They gave me a sharper view of the target though, and I was able to be a bit more precise.


This is the first group I shot. I had a six'o'clock hold on the green circle. The first three went high as I forgot to dial the sights down for the lighter bullet. They are marked with pen. The rest, except the one flyer, landed in the black and green. The flyer was fired offhand, no field expedient rest.


This is the second group. I had trouble getting a good sight picture on the smaller green circle, so I "lollipopped" the black circle this time. The group was tighter, with one called flyer and one "super energetic" surplus round that went low.

Not bad for ammo made in 1962. Not target grade, but not bad.

I did admittedly flinch on a few of these shots, mostly on the second target. The reason is that I have arthritis in new and interesting places, namely my right (support) hand. It twinged a couple times. In fact, I had to pop four aspirin just to type this!

I'm very glad it's not creeped into my left hand badly at all, yet.

At any rate, the bore on the rifle shines and I can hold pretty steady. I don't plan on wearing my prescription safety glasses to shoot a whole lot as I don't want to become dependent on them for shooting. (This goes back to my roots in the study of combat shooting). However, I've seen what the rifle, as it is now, is capable of.

I believe that with quality factory ammunition or custom handloads I could plunk them all into one hole - witness the three shot string in the middle.

I do firmly believe however that I am at the limit of the sights. They are just too course. I am hoping to get a Mojo rear peep sight for Christmas (that and ammo are the only things I've asked for) and when that arrives, I will be replacing the front sight with a finishing nail, with the tip left intact. The combination should give me a very fine sight picture.

Thanks for helping,

Josh <><

[General Geoff]

Josh,

I know exactly how you feel. I've put a few thousand rounds through my M44, and the rifle is quite accurate, moreso than the stock sights would imply. You're better than me at 50 yards (can can usually get 4-6" groups at that range off-hand), and it seems that you would definitely benefit from finer sights.

I also have a Springfield M1A that I shoot at the same ranges and targets as my M44, and let me tell you, peep/aperture sights do make a world of difference, so long as you can keep your rifle steady and braced. I can manage a 6" group at 100 yards with the M1A, as opposed to maybe a 12" group with the Mosin at the same range. I'm convinced that the main underlying accuracy factor there is the sights.

[rocky]

A finish or any other nail will not privide a good sight picture. The point will disappear on the tagrget so you will be forever trying to adjust to find the tip. A good , crisp black post is much better. Find a solid target hold (6 oclock , with or with out the line of white.) then practice dryfiring and shooting till you can hold it tighter. Also better ammo/ gun may be needed to get tight groups.