.223 drawbacks for home / ranch gun ?

This is a discussion on .223 drawbacks for home / ranch gun ? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Here's another link I turned up with some discussion on the .223 and penetration. In most cases against wallboard, .223 HP/SP penetrates less than most ...

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Thread: .223 drawbacks for home / ranch gun ?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    Here's another link I turned up with some discussion on the .223 and penetration. In most cases against wallboard, .223 HP/SP penetrates less than most handgun rounds

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...=144635&page=2

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  3. #17
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    Exactly - the 5.56/.223 round is NOT as bad an over-penetrator as it is often made out to be... Most handgun rounds are just as bad if not worse. The light weight of the .223 causes it to "dump" energy very quickly when it hits things that cause it to destabilize, so even if it does penetrate whatever the barrier/target is, it isn't as dangerous as many heavier, slower rounds.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array glock21guy's Avatar
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    An instructor I have trained with, and is also a SWAT operator. Suggested not using grater than 55 grain. Less chance of over penetration.
    Aaron

    If you don't protect your self, who will?

  5. #19
    Member Array Airborne Sniper's Avatar
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    I don't know if I think that overpenetration is really a valid concern or not. I tend to think that most collateral deaths and injuries come from bullets that go past the intended target instead of actually hitting the target. I've only know of one incident where a bullet went through a bad guy to injure another person and that second injured person was also a second or another bad guy. From police studies we know that only one bullet out of 4 ever hit ANYTHING at all. I'm not saying that concern for what is or isn't beyond your intended target isn't valid but I tend to think that overpenetration may be overrated. Do any of you know any specific shooting incidents where concern for overpenetration was valid?

    I will now go back to my dungeon cell and await the beating...
    Imagine that you're an enemy soldier and you are surrounded by U.S. Army paratroopers on one side and American marines on the other side... Talk about a hopeless situation... That has got to be legal grounds for suicide!

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    Two things.

    1. It seems to me that between my .45 ACP, my 12 GA pump, and my AR-15 the AR is the least loud. Am I wrong?

    2. The other night on Personal Defense TV I was surprised to hear the guy say that .223 bullet was good for HD because the bullet would not penetrate walls very much!
    Timmy Jimmy

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  7. #21
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    i couldn't think of a better weapon to cover the 3 things you mentioned. get an AR with a collapsible stock.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  8. #22
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    1. It seems to me that between my .45 ACP, my 12 GA pump, and my AR-15 the AR is the least loud. Am I wrong?
    In my own experience I've found the handgun and shotgun to be much more bearable than the .223 or 5.56. The AR is a sharper pop and is pretty uncomfortable. Anything is louder indoors though, so keep that in mind.


    -B

  9. #23
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    Timmy - you can't really be wrong, as it is your perception. However, in pure dB levels, the AR is louder than the handgun, and pretty close to the shotgun. However, as I'm sure you've noticed, the shotgun is more of a "boom" to the ARs "crack," and your ears may be more sensitive to one type or the other.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    The folks at the Box of Truth have tested this some time ago...

    1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

    It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

    Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.

    2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine.

    When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.

    Source - http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
    Another long gun option for HD and ranch/varmint use aside from .223 or shotgun is to run a pistol ammo carbine such as a Winchester '94 (or Marlin 1894 'Cowboy') levergun chambered in 357 Magnum/.38 Special.
    If leverguns are not your pie then there is always the Beretta CX carbine chambered in .40S&W.

    - Janq
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Exactly - the 5.56/.223 round is NOT as bad an over-penetrator as it is often made out to be... Most handgun rounds are just as bad if not worse. The light weight of the .223 causes it to "dump" energy very quickly when it hits things that cause it to destabilize, so even if it does penetrate whatever the barrier/target is, it isn't as dangerous as many heavier, slower rounds.
    the main reason for the over penetration beleif is that early in its career the m16 was changed from 1:14 twist to 1:12 to give the rifle longer range. the side effect with this and the requisite change from M193 ball to ss109 ball made the bullet keep its energy a little longer after striking the target. wich is why you sometimes see a hole all the way through someone thats been shot by such a weapon.
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
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  12. #26
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    Partially true. The 1:12 rate was adopted before the mass production of the M16/M16A1, and the M16A2 and later variants (including the M4) jacked this up to 1:7; partially to stabilize the looong 62gr M855 but even more to stabilize the reeeaaalllly looooooong M856 tracer rounds.

    Even the M855 round (with the 'SS109' bullet in it) is still relatively light, compared to most rifle and pistol rounds (indeed, a medium weight 9mm has twice as much weight at 124gr). However, it is the reduced speed, combined with more weight, faster spin, and other factors that tend to create more 'through-and-through' wounds when compared to the older M193 rounds. The heavier the bullet, the less time it maintains enough velocity to cause violent fragmentation when it yaws. Also, it will tend to penetrate deeper before yawing (a combination of the above factors coming into play), and often will not yaw enough within a human target to initiate fragmentation. The increased spin rate of the 1:7 barrels does somewhat compensate for this - because the bullet is spinning that much faster, it has more force attempting to 'pull it apart' as it yaws through the 90 degree axis...

    Of course, all other things being equal, a more stable bullet will penetrate deeper, but the differences between 55gr out of a 1:12 and 62gr out of a 1:7 are not THAT great - stable is pretty much stable, within a set or parameters. In the end, though, I was talking about penetration for missed shots, that do not go through a mostly liquid medium like flesh - the lighter rounds of the 5.56N tend to have less penetration, and/or less energy AFTER penetration, than most other, heavier pistol, rifle, and shotgun rounds. Note that this is not to say that the rounds won't penetrate, or that they won't be dangerous after an interior wall or three - just that they tend to be less dangerous. In addition, if the light fast bullet is destabilized significantly (more likely with this bullet type than with a slower, broader, heavier round) it will slow down much more quickly and, because it relies primarily on velocity for energy, will lose said energy quicker - so a missed shot that goes through the wall of your home (becoming destabilized on the way) will be shedding energy much more quickly than a heavy, blunt, short-and-fat pistol round that punched through without destabilizing.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array allenruger's Avatar
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    Just one thing to say... loud, loud, loud.
    Allen

    -"I may get killed with my own gun, but he's gonna have to beat me to death with it, 'cause it's going to be empty." -Clint Smith

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