interesting concept

interesting concept

This is a discussion on interesting concept within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; im sure most of the LEO's here have heard of pepperball. its a "less lethal" projectile that creates a small cloud of Capsaicin II at ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    interesting concept

    im sure most of the LEO's here have heard of pepperball. its a "less lethal" projectile that creates a small cloud of Capsaicin II at the target area. i was wondering about how feasable it would be to maufacture a similar .68 caliber paintball style projectile useing OC irritant for priate use.

    the obviouse tactical benifits are great. a means of legaly protecting property, less need for concern about overpenetration in house, and so on. obviously it wouldn't be an ideal EDC option but nice to have in the car and around the house(just keep it away from Jr.s paintball stuff).

    again this is just a crazy idea i had that might actualy be feasable.(i might just wanna think about switching to decaf)
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    We had them in the cars for a while. They have some value but not enough to justify all of the hassle with them. Tanks use compressed air not CO2. All of them leak and have to be topped off all of the time. The projectiles are filled with powdered OC. The trick was to pop the intended target in the groin. They then bend over in to the small cloud of OC and gasp. All in all, not really effective. The projectiles from Pepper ball cost about $1.50 each. Not real cost effective either. CS works much better on most people.
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

  3. #3
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    The FN 303 fires a .68 cal projectile, though it isn't exactly a paintball.
    Welcome to the official FN HERSTAL website

    Also, it sounds like the PepperBall can be fired through a normal paintball gun, even though the company recommends against it and only warranties their own launchers (go figure) - I don't see why you couldn't make the same thing with a different irritant in it (or why you would really want to).

    In any case, I certainly wouldn't use any type of OC/CS projectile as a home defense weapon. These things are designed for crowd control, subdual of suspects when lethal force isn't required, and so forth. There is always someone backing up the less-lethal user with a firearm - an unlikely scenario in a home invasion or CCW scenario. They have their uses (we used them in Afghanistan to keep rock throwers and other miscreants away from the perimeter walls), but HD/CCW doesn't seem to be one of them. Only my opinion, though, of course...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #4
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    I dont think pepperballs are restricted items, but I dont think its a good idea to use them for HD unless you have some more people to back you up with lethal force.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array ron8903's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I dont think pepperballs are restricted items, but I dont think its a good idea to use them for HD unless you have some more people to back you up with lethal force.
    I will have to agree with SIXTO, I will always have my lethal option while deploying less than.
    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
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  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Manufacture of paintballs requires specific manufacturing equipment that are over seen for transfer and licensed for use by the FDA. This is a little known factoid toward the sport and is why there are just IIRC 3 or 4 mfrs. across all of the various brands and grades out there available on the market be it recreational, tournament/pro, or law enforcement.
    The equipment which makes the gelatin carrier/shell (paintball itself) are the same used to make medicine gel caps. I used to years ago have a video about the mfr. of paintballs to which this was covered in detail but I have no clue now where it might be.
    Making your own correctly sized and product effective paintballs at home is going to be serious work without specialized equipment, nevermind replacing the normal fill (soy based and colored with dye) with that of a 'pepperball'.

    Not that this is required at all. Any 'baller knows if you turn up your regulator to result in field illegal FPS of 350 or greater the resulting impacts on a human will very easily draw blood and be EXTREMELY painful even through normal street clothing. Not that as much is necessary to do when you can simply aim at regular use FPS your marker at a persons face, upper torso, or back and smoother them in PAIN very easily and quickly dumping a hopper full of paint in less than 10 seconds with most modern markers.
    Myself I've used my markers to humanely reduce invasive squirrel population on my property with the marker turned up to 425 to 450 FPS. One shot one kill behind the head or at the center of the back.
    As well I keep my markers stored and charged ready to rock as a non-lethal dissuasion tool per the subject of this thread. I can very easily hit a person in the face with a first single shot with my equipment which all is tournament grade and used gear at a distance out to 150'. That is more than far enough away to be purposeful never mind up close and personal. No pepperballs required and ammo is available OTC without requirement of a special order.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #7
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    Janq, do you keep some "AP" paintballs in the freezer?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    The Company that I used to Admin and Moderate their Web site and used to do some field event tech for makes them.

    Perfect Circle is the name of that side company that was/is owned by Tom Kaye of Airgun Designs (AGD). I don't know if Tom kept that company or not when he sold out AGD and retired a few years back. I can ask him if you want?

    I have toured that facility and seen them made. As far as I know they are the ONLY maker of the balls. Its a small market and so not much else out there. However they sell only to certain vendors who then package them and sell them straight to Military and LED's. It is located in Wheeling Illinois and is adjoining the Airgun Designs facility.

    Depending on who you go with for the set of equipment you can still get one set up that does fire them with CO2 (or at least did). Their are a few of them that put packages together. AGD used to put together a package in with a "Pistol" of a Paintball Marker they made called the AGD Sydarm. It carried 10 rounds in the upper tube. This was fired with a typical CO2 cartridge. Those pistols are scarce and rare now. I had one for a while and I still have a 10 pack of the Pepper balls somewhere. The companies now marketing the pepper balls should still have a Pistol option somewhere (although not AGD) that uses typical CO2 cartridges. Because they are still putting out a package of 10 balls and two CO2 cartridges for sale.

    They are not your typical Paintball. They are make from a hemisphere of plastic then charged and then joined together. All done in a ventilated Glove box. Regular Paintballs are made from a vegetable based Jellatin that will not hold up to the Pepper material so they used a special plastic material for these particular balls. Most of this stuff came out of research grant from the military way back. In which they were also doing some other forms of less lethal shots too, including some ball bearings launched from air powered units. There was even a launcher built and designed to under mount on an M16. Like a grenade launcher. I have laid my hands on the prototype of that M16 so equipped. It still resides at AGD far as I know.

    I do recall that the Pepperball verisons of the Sydarm were specifically built to shoot a maximum of 250 FPS. Which is possibly why you don't want to use a regular Marker that the valve does not limit the pressure too. Particularly with CO2 which has a characteristic of changing pressure to temperature. These valves would do that for you as they had a relief valve. Air can be regulated more stable so is easier to use but CO2 is just so handy. We never felt comfortable with the other Markers being used for this reason. They had no safety net built in. But they are out there. But the original design had the Marker (gun) designed around the ball and its delivery in mind. The alternatives out there right now are not as good as the one Tom designed because of the variables they introduce.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Janq, do you keep some "AP" paintballs in the freezer?
    No, that freezer trick is urban legend.

    Expose a paintball to any sort of moisture and the first thing it does is expand as the gelatin casing loses it's shape which is under pressure from the liquid fill inside. Freezing a paintball causes the ball to crack and thus be unfireable. Those that do not crack begin to breakdown immediately after removal from the fridge and with that the shell goes south real quick. The clean up of a broken paintball in ones hopper is enough to make some people say to say to heck with that and just buy a whole new hopper. Cleaning up the mess is a PITA.
    Even if a frozen ball were to load the impact forces from being fired through the barrel would cause it to split and again nothing but goo go everywhere and nowhere. Nevermind that as every baller knows the balls have to be perfectly round and symmetrical to fly straight, accurate, and predictably. The slightest dimple in the ball or 'soft' spot and the ball will either break in the barrel before it exists or exit and curve hard left or right or even spiral going nowhere fast. Absolutely useless unless the person is standing at contact distance to the barrel.

    A far more efficient and effective method is to turn ones regulator up to the max allowed tournament level of 299 FPS. That is more than enough to dissuade most any human being and animals too, though one should never shoot humans at such a rate outside of tourney conditions and never animals for purpose of 'fun'. Normal field level for recreational play are 250 to 275 FPS and even at that it's enough to for most people to have felt discomfort/pain to the degree that they won't want to get hit a second or third time muchless rained upon with a whole hopper load at roughly 150 to 200 rounds per hopper. And I can reload my hopper under tournament conditions in under 3 seconds start to fire...and also continue firing while simultaneously reloading (!).
    Also again for an interloper in specific aimed fire even at 250 FPS to the face and other soft/sensitive areas of a human body will not be walked through Superman style nor shook off quickly.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #10
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    Well, having done some paintball training in Illinois (amoung other places), I can say that there was a big difference between summer and winter events. The balls would freeze - probably not all the way through, but enough - of their own volition, and would leave a bigger mark through winter coats than they did in summer through t-shirts. I must say, however, that there were a LOT more malfunctions in the winter, as well.

    As a side note, Simunitions rounds exposed to the cold seem to hit harder, too...and they're basically just soap. Maybe it's all in my mind...lol
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    I know that 300 fps leaves a nice welt... and if your ever hit in the neck or "balls" you don't want any more of it. The trick is to NOT get hit and there is plenty of motivation!

    Most of the winter malfunctions came from the CO2 days. You set your marker at less than 300 FPS and as soon as it warms up another 10 degrees its shooting near 325 and back to the crono you go. Hard to regulate that stuff when the temperature is changing. Hence the development of Compressed air tanks. Also having it's root in Illinois by the way.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    OPFOR,

    The issue with winter play is not that the balls freeze or even get cold, its that CO2 power systems due to how they function are not good at all toward maintaining reliable pressure constants under temperature extremes nor temperature swings. It's a norm to see pressure spikes (and dips) when running CO2 in winter. Thats why the development of secondary regulators and expansion chambers came to be in paintball following the development of constant air systems via CO2. In winter it's not unusual for people to be dinged with hot gun penalties even after having chronoed minutes prior as being below limits. The fix for this is to run the gun 15 to 20 FPS below field/or tournament max. to be safe and safest, or better run with an anti-siphon tube setup at the CO2 tank (I do this on my backup marker and rec marker), or best yet run high pressure air (HPA) which I run all of my markers with as a primary power source (I keep CO2 as a tournament emergency power backup for all but my best marker). HPA isn't affected by air temperature at a given ground level and thus play in winter temps results in consistent regulator functionality shot to shot and same chrono figures regardless of the speed or duration a string might be fired.

    Folks on the receiving end commonly assume it's the old balls are cold/frozen trick but really it's nothing more than a conditional side effect of weather related science.
    When reffing and I'd see a player firing hot (unknown to them) or they got dinged upon a spot check during cold weather conditions I would advise them to transfer heat to their CO2 tank by stowing it for a spell under their armpit or to when in the dead zone let it sit under direct sunlight, which is never a good idea during hot spring and summer days.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #13
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    Ahh, thanks for the info Janq. I'm thinking another psychological side effect is that everything seems to hurt more when you're cold!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep, that too. :)

    BTW in regard to Simunition training last September I did a one week advanced combatives for LEOs training course that had a heavy focus on Sims use. Everyone in my class including the instructor was stressed about getting hit and how bad it was going to hurt. Me, after ten yrs. of tourney 'ball running amateur A and I don't know how many thousands of hours of training time being shot at and hit (including bunkered at contact range) never mind regular for fun rec play I'm pretty much immune to paintball pain fear. Folks showed up wearing three and four layers of upper body clothing. I wore a t-shirt and my paintball refs over shirt along with slider tourney pants (PaintballJunkies brand). I got hit once, with a glancing shot in the lower shin. The only person in class to be pain and mark free. Everyone else was hit altelast 10 times or more in total again over the course of a weeks time.

    People laugh and scoff at this but speaking for myself paintball training taught me loads about the real world concepts toward effective use of cover and concealment and working through the fear of incoming fire to remain and be effective. IMHO paintball is the for training purposes, to an obviously limited degree, the next best thing to running Simunitions in the way of combat training. You get hit, you hurt, you and the shooter know you failed with instant bang you're dead results...until the next recycle. ;)

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Oh its excellent training. We used to get our ROTC guys out there and use it for team tactics here too. And our State Academy is doing a day of shooting at students now for training tactics. Eventually you get pretty good and finding cover and using it. Good stuff. I haven't played in a few years cause I am just getting too old for it. Miss it sometimes. Still have some of my equipment though. Just cannot keep up with you yunguns anymore is all.

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