The Ubiquitous Scout Rifle

This is a discussion on The Ubiquitous Scout Rifle within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I dunno... he says he doesn't like 9mm pistols and then he praised one of the CZ platforms built around 9mm. He lays out this ...

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Thread: The Ubiquitous Scout Rifle

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I dunno... he says he doesn't like 9mm pistols and then he praised one of the CZ platforms built around 9mm.

    He lays out this strict criteria for a scout rifle and then says something else is an acceptable substitute.

    The thing is, the man has done so much and is probably so skilled, he's probably gotten to the point where he can pick up the biggest piece of junk gun in existence and hit a clay with it on the first shot. He lives on Gunsite for Pete's sake.

    I've always thought that the perfect shooter would have no preferences or biases other than for quality when it came to selecting hardware.

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  3. #17
    OD*
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    He praises the platform, not the projectile.

    He has firm opinions, but is open to other well thought out ideas also. He did not invent the scout rifle concept and freely acknowledges that fact.

    There is no perfect shooter, I've seen him miss with his scout rifle on American Shooter. Even at 85 years old, I'd hate to be on his bad side.

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    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Good point OD. Cooper just formalized it and set out the criteria with an objective list. He does have a good way of stating things and qualifying them concisely.

  5. #19
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    Euc,

    I hope I didn't come across as being argumentative towards you, if so, it was unintended amigo. I've been a Cooper fan for some time and enjoy a good conversation about the Colonel.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Not at all OD. I just thought of it as you setting the record straight. I don't pretend to know everything. That's why I like this site so much. We don't have any resident know it alls save for the occassional presence of a troll.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    MY idea of the (near) perfect Scout Rifle. It goes over the weight limits just a tad. But you can't beat it for CQB and fast followup shots.

    http://www.springfield-armory.com/pr...es-socom.shtml
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Ex I've always thought that one of those rifles would be the ideal thing for me, but I hear they've got a lot of QC issues. I've heard all sorts of horror stories and I met one man who claimed he had one and never could get it to work for him.

    But I also realize that people say the same thing about any gun. Do you have one of those? I have to admit that is an interesting product.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    MY idea of the (near) perfect Scout Rifle. It goes over the weight limits just a tad. But you can't beat it for CQB and fast followup shots.

    http://www.springfield-armory.com/pr...es-socom.shtml

    Yeah Baby now thats what im talking about ..

    Even though the scope is still mounted werid and odd to use they shoot great and are really loud .

    Buddie at work bought one and i couldnt believe the cost of rifle plus scope and all the other crap he bought For it but it is heavy its only real draw back besides $$$$

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    It also illustrates what I'm talking about. Any rifle that fits the Scout criteria is either very high end or a highly modified very low end with nothing in between. This baffles me.

  11. #25
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    Talking Socom 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Ex I've always thought that one of those rifles would be the ideal thing for me, but I hear they've got a lot of QC issues. I've heard all sorts of horror stories and I met one man who claimed he had one and never could get it to work for him.

    But I also realize that people say the same thing about any gun. Do you have one of those? I have to admit that is an interesting product.
    A very good buddy of mine has one. I'm saving to buy one. I have a full size M1A Super Match, sniper tuned w/Harris bi-pod and a 3x10 Range Finding Sheppherd scope. The only issues of which I'm aware on the shorty is that it is L-O-U-D! AND it seems to have problems with heating up the forearm assembly during sustained fire, but I think this is being addressed. I like it because the mags are interchangeable with my other M1A. I love the forward mounted optic; either ACOG or Holosight would work for me.

    I don't think the issues are QC. Almost always it's ammo that causes stuff to go wrong. I had an M1A standard version that had trouble with FTEs and discovered it was the ammo I had gotten from Georgia Arms (factory reloads).
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    That makes sense to me. Your better firearms tend to be fitted a little tighter and a little more precisely sometimes which makes them sensitive to the tiny little differences in ammunition.

    I'm spoiled rotten as nothing I own is a picky eater.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Ive heard of ammo issues in the Socom 16's but havent seen it and dont own one so cant say and like Euc im spoiled as i dont have a pickey eater out of all the guns i have

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Is there something in between? Why isn't there?
    Despite Cooper's influence over the industry for good and for ill, it's a concept that differs from what most folks are used to and want. A scope sits in X position on a rifle, and that's what folks are used to. Long eye relief choices are also extremely limited in the scope department, and it's even more difficult to share a rifle with such a setup with someone in my experience because length of pull really screws with the required distance to make the optics work.

    Add to that the fact that the average bolt guy doesn't see the need for a detachable magazine, many don't see the need for a bipod, etc., and it doesn't do much in the eyes of the average shooter that Granddad's bolt gun won't already do.

    It's the latter that really kills it in the marketplace. Fast reloads on a bolt gun are almost humorous in this day and age, and that's what the magazine is about - why not just go semiauto at that point?
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    To me, I always thought the point was that if you can really work a bolt gun competently, your "rate of fire" is the exact same with the bolt action or the self loading action.

    I like semiautomatic rifles just fine, but I think a general purpose do it all rifle like this should have a manual action. The thing is, the Scout concept is supposed to be the rifle that never fails you. The sight system is redundant. The loading capability is redundant in the sense you shouldn't need a magazine to be able to use the rifle. The sling and bipod give you maximum stability. The size and light weight let you get closer. What is more reliable than a bolt action rifle? What is simpler than a bolt action rifle? Not much.

    Honestly if the balloon goes up and I had to choose, I'd take a rifle with a simple, rugged manual action over a semiautomatic if I had to make the choice. See my semiautomatic rifles are 100% reliable but that's my rifle, not someone else's.

    Not to mention, say you are using a traditional scope. Too bad you didn't see that guy with a sock full of quarters sneak up on you.

    Not to mention if the SHTF, spraying ammunition all over this place will be ill advised. Conservation of resources is paramount.

    I will agree that no rifle is 100% adaptable to all circumstances. That's why so many different ones exist.

    See I'd even settle for some sort of pseudo scout design with a traditional optic with some kind of backup sights that met all the other criteria, hell it could even be semiautomatic too, but I don't see anything like that on the market either, at least not in the middle market. I can think of some high end rifles that would meet this description.

  16. #30
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    I will agree that no rifle is 100% adaptable to all circumstances. That's why so many different ones exist.
    Well said sir.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

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