Weaponology on Military Channel-Spetsnatz

This is a discussion on Weaponology on Military Channel-Spetsnatz within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Did anyone else watch the military channel's episode of weaponology about Spetsnatz? One of the weapons they mentioned was a sniper rifle, IIRC, 9mm in ...

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Thread: Weaponology on Military Channel-Spetsnatz

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Question Weaponology on Military Channel-Spetsnatz

    Did anyone else watch the military channel's episode of weaponology about Spetsnatz? One of the weapons they mentioned was a sniper rifle, IIRC, 9mm in caliber, integral suppressor,subsonic, that was supposedly capable of kills at 400m, penetrating steel(don't recall exact amount) and penetrating any modern infantry body armor. Am I alone in thinking this is complete BS?
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
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    That does tend to set off the BS o'meter. subsonic penetrating steel and modern body armour at 400m. I'd like to see what they are talking about.

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    JD
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    Well 9mm in diameter is nothing to sneer at say in a 200gr rifle bullet.

    The SMAW uses a special 9mm rifle round for the tracer portion.

    Having not seen the show, I can't tell you what they are talking, but remember, there's more than one 9mm.

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    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Well 9mm in diameter is nothing to sneer at say in a 200gr rifle bullet.
    True, if it was going at standard rifle velocities. But subsonic?

    I know some of the Whisper cartridges are very accurate using the subsonic rounds but I just don't really see them as armour piercing rounds.

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    JD
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    Who knows maybe a depleted uranium round???

    All I'm saying is, who knows what's out there.

    IE, while it sounds like BS, that's what I would have said about a 25MM, high explosive, discarding sabot tracer before I saw them with my own eyes (it's really cool BTW)

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    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Who knows maybe a depleted uranium round???

    All I'm saying is, who knows what's out there.

    IE, while it sounds like BS, that's what I would have said about a 25MM, high explosive, discarding sabot tracer before I saw them with my own eyes (it's really cool BTW)
    But that sabot is believable!

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    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Google brings up this:

    "The next line of development, also initiated by Spetsnaz requirements, also involved silenced weapons, but in more powerful form. Since the effective range of silenced pistols is severely limited, scout and Spetsnaz elements of the Soviet army originally employed AK and AKM rifles, fitted with detachable sound suppressors (silencers) and loaded with special versions of 7.62x39 M43 ammo, known as 7.62x39 US (Umenshennaya Skorost – Low velocity). To achieve subsonic velocity along with acceptable ballistics, these cartridges were loaded with heavier bullets, but their performance was still inadequate. So, during the late 1980s, soviet designers developed improved sub-sonic ammunition, suitable for specially designed automatic weapons. These cartridges, known as SP-5 and SP-6, were based on a 7.62x39 M43 case, necked-out to 9mm, and loaded with heavy, streamlined bullets. The SP-5 cartridge was loaded with a standard “ball” bullet with lead core, and was intended for accurate sniper work out to 300-400 meters. The SP-6 cartridge featured an armour-piercing bullet with a hardened steel core, which could defeat typical military-type body armour at ranges of up to 300-400 meters. Two weapons were initially developed for this ammunition, both based on the same receiver and gas operated action – the VSS sniper rifle and AS assault rifle. Both weapons have selective fire, with integral sound suppressors, and use the same magazines of 10- or 20-round capacity. Later on, several more weapons were developed for 9x39 ammunition, such as SR-3 and 9A-91 compact assault rifles, used by elite Internal Affairs Ministry, Police and State Security units. The one problem, associated with 9x39, as well as with most other special purpose cartridges, is that such ammunition is usually quite expensive. An attempt was made during the late 1990s to produce a much cheaper 9x39 AP loading, designated PAB-9. This cartridge featured bullets with stamped (instead of machined) steel cores, as well as increased driving surfaces. As a result, accuracy was poor and barrel wear significantly increased, so this ammunition is apparently no longer in use."

    Picture here.

    More (note link to SP-5 picture).

    On Wikipedia.

    Video.

    And more.

    A good search is for: vss sniper rifle

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    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bzdog View Post
    Google brings up this:

    "The next line of development, also initiated by Spetsnaz requirements, also involved silenced weapons, but in more powerful form. Since the effective range of silenced pistols is severely limited, scout and Spetsnaz elements of the Soviet army originally employed AK and AKM rifles, fitted with detachable sound suppressors (silencers) and loaded with special versions of 7.62x39 M43 ammo, known as 7.62x39 US (Umenshennaya Skorost – Low velocity). To achieve subsonic velocity along with acceptable ballistics, these cartridges were loaded with heavier bullets, but their performance was still inadequate. So, during the late 1980s, soviet designers developed improved sub-sonic ammunition, suitable for specially designed automatic weapons. These cartridges, known as SP-5 and SP-6, were based on a 7.62x39 M43 case, necked-out to 9mm, and loaded with heavy, streamlined bullets. The SP-5 cartridge was loaded with a standard “ball” bullet with lead core, and was intended for accurate sniper work out to 300-400 meters. The SP-6 cartridge featured an armour-piercing bullet with a hardened steel core, which could defeat typical military-type body armour at ranges of up to 300-400 meters. Two weapons were initially developed for this ammunition, both based on the same receiver and gas operated action – the VSS sniper rifle and AS assault rifle. Both weapons have selective fire, with integral sound suppressors, and use the same magazines of 10- or 20-round capacity. Later on, several more weapons were developed for 9x39 ammunition, such as SR-3 and 9A-91 compact assault rifles, used by elite Internal Affairs Ministry, Police and State Security units. The one problem, associated with 9x39, as well as with most other special purpose cartridges, is that such ammunition is usually quite expensive. An attempt was made during the late 1990s to produce a much cheaper 9x39 AP loading, designated PAB-9. This cartridge featured bullets with stamped (instead of machined) steel cores, as well as increased driving surfaces. As a result, accuracy was poor and barrel wear significantly increased, so this ammunition is apparently no longer in use."

    Picture here.

    More (note link to SP-5 picture).

    On Wikipedia.

    Video.

    And more.

    A good search is for: vss sniper rifle
    My issue with the range that they quote is that I find it very hard to believe that ANY subsonic round would be able to penetrate modern infantry body armor in addition to being accurate at 300 to 400 meters.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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    BAC
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    I did see that episode, and was left strongly doubting the integrity of their claims before actually reading about the VSS and the 9x39 cartridge. After doing so, I don't really doubt the truth of those claims, provided we remember these are probably the MAXIMUM ranges it can efficiently operate it, since this isn't the 9mm Parabellum we're talking about (points for JD for the astute observation). The round reminds me of the Whisper rounds (big bullet + low speed = good suppressor use).

    And yes, I really, really want a VSS.


    -B

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    The subsonic round uses a very sharp profile on the bullet.Since Kevlar is designed to spread the impact over a large area, the sharp point on the bullet defeats it. Its the same reason that most Kevlar vests are not considered knifeproof, and special vests are required for that.

    With that being said,I dont doubt that range but, being subsonic the trajectory at that range would mimic a rainbow.

    I've got a few .300 Whispers that are suppressed, and trust me, accurate range estimation is critical after about 125 yards.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Senior Member Array Skygod's Avatar
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    I've been disappointed in most of the "Weaponology" series.

    I'd rather see more contemporary weapons, not spend the first half hour of the show on the M1 Garand, MG42 and a fricken German Luger pistol.

    There's so much the general public doesn't get to see that I believe they'd find more interesting than a history of the weapons that they already know and own.

    I've yet to see an explanation of the PEQ/2A or the PVS/14 behind an Aimpoint. I have more people ask me about those "thingy's" on the M4 than I ever do about the damn Garand rifle. (insert disappointment emoticon)

    Not to mention, they spend an awful lot of time on the 1911 pistol, and to this day I still don't know of any convential or Special Operations on the white side of the fence that carry them. The Beretta M9 is here to stay for a while.
    Perhaps your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

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    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    The subsonic round uses a very sharp profile on the bullet.Since Kevlar is designed to spread the impact over a large area, the sharp point on the bullet defeats it. Its the same reason that most Kevlar vests are not considered knifeproof, and special vests are required for that.

    With that being said,I dont doubt that range but, being subsonic the trajectory at that range would mimic a rainbow.

    I've got a few .300 Whispers that are suppressed, and trust me, accurate range estimation is critical after about 125 yards.
    I understand that the round might be able to penetrate kevlar at that range but I just don't see it punching holes in steel. Unless, it is extremely thin, too thin for protection anyway.

    On a side note. I went to SSK Industries a while back and they let me shoot their .300 Whisper Contender and M16. Not on full auto unfortunately. I've wanted one for years but I just can't justify the cost. And it would be very hard for me to save up for it anyway.

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    I've got the Contender in the .300 Whisper, in an AR and a Rem.700 that I bult.
    Of them all, the Remington is the quietest when the suppresor is on it...

    I love the round. I would'nt have thought that the subsonic 220 grain round would punch right through a deer from one end to the other if I hadnt seen it.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    This round was developed in the 80's - "modern" body armor at the time was "flak jackets", not IBAs. It wasn't until the RBA of the mid 90s that any common military body armor could stop any rifle round at all, never mind an armor percing design. So, it is conceivable that the right bullet design, even subsonic, could penetrate a flak vest (or similar) at 400 yards.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    if i remember correctly i belaive that round has a peice of ?plastic? right in front of the poweder to act like a piston to force the round down the barrel while keping the hot gasses contained reduceing the sound signature signifigantly.
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
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