This is a discussion on What configuration? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I dunno, if I wanted a rifle in a 9mm....I think I'd get one of theose Kel-Tec Sub 2000 folding rifles (I actually DID have ...
October 16th, 2005 01:05 PM
I dunno, if I wanted a rifle in a 9mm....I think I'd get one of theose Kel-Tec Sub 2000 folding rifles (I actually DID have one of those and it was awesome, but I foolishly traded it) or the NEW Beretta "Storm" rifle. I just don't get the idea of an AR 9mm, although I understand a lot of Feds like them. IMHO the best 9mm sub-gun is the H&K MP5. That Sub2000 folder fit neatly inside a briefcase and had a lot of uses, as well as being very accurate and reliable. As well as cost effective.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
October 16th, 2005 01:39 PM
For 9mm i would say the Storm is pretty cool i have one and you can get 20-30 round mags for it just makes more sense to me unless you are going full auto on the 9mm in ar-15 style
October 17th, 2005 09:56 PM
The main reason I'm building one in 9mm is that I like the AR platform, and most of my shooting is done at an indoor range which allows pistol/rimfire calibers only.
October 17th, 2005 11:03 PM
for short distancesa the 9mm is ok for an AR. For outdoor any more than 70 yrds or so, ya may as well throw rocks. My buddy had a 9mm aR. worthless for any medium distance shooting, but I would think good for CQB or short distances.
October 17th, 2005 11:24 PM
I think an AR with a 16" barrel, removable carry handle and either 4 or 6 position stock.
Why 16"? It makes the weapon more maneuverable when working indoors or around vehicles.
Why a removable carry handle? It gives you iron sights with the option to upgrade to an optic later.
Why an adjustable stock? It allows you to adjust the weapon's length of pull to suit you.
You will want to add a light at some point, probably sooner rather than later if you attend training. I trust Surefire, but they are more expensive than some other options.
Take that set-up to a class or two and you will have a good idea of what else you want/need.
I was hitting a 10" square plate at will with a 10.5" barrelled Colt 9mm SMG at 100 yards. No problem. I would have felt comfortable going out another 25-50 yards.
October 18th, 2005 10:45 AM
 You know, when I hit the reply button, I didnt plan on my post being near the size it is. Sorry. [/edit]
My first post was previewed and changed so many times that there isnt much of the orginal left...
My ideal config (with explainations):
16" barrel for manuverability. NATO chamber for suplus ammo. Chrome lining not required, however is an added plus. 1:9" twist rate, its good for bullets as light as 40 grain, and as heavy as 70ish. I'll probably shoot 55 grain the most. (ammo oracle goes into twist rates much better than I can)
Badger Ordnace tac latch. It makes it much easier to manipulate the charging handle. For example, forward assist I could live without, I'll never use it. If I cant push the bolt forward with my thumb, I'm just gonna pull the charging handle and go to the next round.
Being a southpaw, a brass deflector is a must. An ambi safety and ambi mag release are not, if I get used to them on my carbine, using someone else's could be a chore.
A1 rear sight, with an A2 aperture. I dont need the elevation knob, and although the odds of having the windage knob "bumped" out of alignment are small, I dont need someone saying "Ooo, what's this knob do?" (yes, its happened ). I can live with the A2 rear sight, I just prefer A1.
XS sights same-plane rear aperture so that you dont have to choose which aperture to zero with. You get more accurate shots with the small one, so most folks zero with it, however the large one is more useable, so its the one its usually on. 9mm isn't a long-distance round IMO, so I'm ging to zero it for the large aperture. Recently, at another board, I heard of LEOs re-zeroing for the large aperture since its more useable.
Flat top, for versitility. It will allow you to co-witness an Aimpoint/EOTech/Reflex sight without a carry handle mount that places the sight over the handgaurds, or the more expensive option of Daniel Defense (or comparable) free-float railed handgaurds. Unfortunatly my preferance for an A1 rear sight works against liking flattops. If RRA would make their UTE 2 upper with an A1 rear sight, I'd be using them for my current 9mm build and my future .223. Of course, if you dont like it being a flat-top, you can jsut leave the A2 handle on it.
If I ever decide on which optic to use, and for that matter fork out the cash for it, I'm going to use a fixed, stand alone, A1 BUIS. I dont like flip-up sights, but on a scoped flattop you really dont have a choice if you mount the scope low on the upper. If my future Aimpoint/EOTech/Reflex sight (still undecided) fails, knowing my luck, it will be at the wrong time (like when I'm surronded by a bunch of undead cannibals moving in fast), and I wont have time to flip my rear sight up.
Light. You dont have to spend more than half of what you spent on the gun for a Surefire M500A. I just plan on a Surefire 6P mounted to the FSB, using something like this mount from wilson combat. If I need the light, I can hit the button with my thumb without moving my support hand.
Stock, mil-spec trigger, all ~9 lbs of it. Match triggers are nice, but they're too light for a working gun IMO. My last AR's trigger broke around 9 pounds, my single fire 9mm breaks around 8.
Single point sling. I tried a three point, but being left-handed with rifles and right handed with pistols, it didnt work out to well. Since I pretty much had to carry using the military patrol method, I couldnt "drop" my carbine and keep the muzzle of the gun down, yet keep my carbine in front of me. Off-side drop could have, but would have also blocked my pistol. (useful link)
M4 stock. The AR fits me better when the stock is two clicks in.
Flash supressor. Fire an AR in low-light and you'll see why (but you wont see much of anything else for a minute or two).
One more thing, dont use junk magazines. The ban is dead, quality mags are plentiful and affordable. Also, number them. Its a lot easier to figure out which mag is causing problems when you look at the side and see a big "4" rather than getting home and realizing they all look the same (I learned this the hard way, lol).
October 18th, 2005 11:03 PM
See that's a great post Zach. Since I don't actually own one, I don't think about things like that.
October 19th, 2005 05:06 AM
Well - here are a couple of pics of my AR. Granted - I know some of you won't like the color scheme - but it works - and this is my "working" gun. I don't like black for rifles - but as you can tell I don't like wood either! LOL
My "M4gery" is set up to my exact specs. Colt upper with 1x7 twist (so I can shoot the 77 grain ammo that is doing such a fine job in the "sand box") - Bushmaster lower. EOTech sight - ARMS back-up iron rear sight that is folded down. MagPul MIAD pistol grip with trigger guard. VLTOR stock. I have an ARMS RAS rail on the front - but I don't use it except to hold my fore-grip - and there are less expensive options to do that (there wasn't when I got my RAS).
The "pink/red" muzzle cover is because I got tired of shooting the black one's off my muzzle because I would forget it was there. I have only shot off one red one! LOL
For a "beginners" gun - I would recommend a 16" barrel with a colapsable stock and flat-top upper - with an ARMS 40 or similar back-up iron sight. Then I would get a few (dozen) mags from Brownells - and shoot 1,000 or so rounds (that performs the task of the all important trigger job - it gets YOU used to the trigger!) and by then you will know what else you might want to do to your rifle.
CMMG has great quality uppers that are 4150 steel barrels and are chrome lined - and are 1x7" twist. The 4150 steel (mil spec) is more abrasionsion resistant than the more common 4140 - and the chrome lining is "slicker" than barrel steel - the combination of which means longer barrel life - and more reliable feeding/extracting.
Stay away from target triggers - they usually fail when you NEED it to work.
Get some good instruction in its use.
Hope that helps,
October 19th, 2005 09:35 AM
LOL, glad you cleared that up. When I first saw it I thought it was an airsoft gun...
Originally Posted by tire iron
October 19th, 2005 09:51 AM
Zach that is a good list of stuff in your post im a lefty to and dont actually have any Ambi stuff on mine
October 19th, 2005 12:38 PM
Great info from Zach - and I say that as a non AR shooter!
Tire - nice pics and perfect sizing - kudos!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
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is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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October 19th, 2005 01:19 PM
October 19th, 2005 01:29 PM
I appreciate your "list" of things you like/want in an AR - and although I can see where you are coming from (I used to be there too) - I thought I would share "where I am now" with regards to a few things.
It has been my experience with both the EOTech and Aimpoint (I own both) that they can be used as great "ghost sights" if the dot fails to appear at that very criticial moment. In other words - the rear sight isn't even needed when we talking about close range shots. If the shot is not close range - then you will have the time to flip up the rear. To me - a "fixed" rear sight clutters up the view through the scope when the dot is working (which is 99.99999999999999% of the time).
Originally Posted by Zach S
The large "Tube" of the Aimpoint or the even larger "T.V." sized window of the EOTech can be used with excellent results without the rear sight at all. Just look through the scope as if the dot were there - and press the trigger. Works great out to 25 or so meters - any further than that you should be behind cover anyway - so you could take a half second to flip the rear sight up.
I also have the Badger TacLatch - it is a great piece of kit.
My AR's are set up completely ambi-dextrous too. I understand the reasoning you have for leaving them "stock" - but my reasoning is that I will have *MY* rifle in my hands 99.99999999999% of the time - and I want it to run as smoothly and quickly as possible - whether I am shooting it right or left handed (I do both). The ambi safety and ambi-mag release give me that ability.
When I am approaching "left side cover" my mind doesn't have to think "OK - now you got to operate this thing left handed - and it is a bit different than right handed" - my mind can go straight to working the problem - since my gun is operated EXACTLY the same whether right or left handed.
I would rather retain that ability MOST of the time - than leave my gun stock in case I have to use another one....which would be a "rareity".
Niether way (leave it "stock" or modify for "higher performance") is "right" or "wrong" - they are just two different approaches to the same problem - which is eliminating the threat as quickly as possible - with the least amount of damage to the good guys (preferably NONE).
Hope this helps,
October 20th, 2005 12:42 AM
Best AR site out there. Plenty of proven info. Of course you have to sort through the site to find it.
October 20th, 2005 09:43 AM
Being left-handed, I think I have a couple of advantages (which are sadly outnumbered by disadvantages). For one, I'm already used to dealing with the wrong locations for the controls, and manipulating them is second nature. Two, when approaching weak side cover, everything is already in the right spot
Originally Posted by tire iron
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