October 7th, 2008 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by AutoFan
The idea is to not get into a gunfight, the idea is to stop it with the first shot and NOTHING stops it with the first shot like a 12 ga. shotgun, NOTHING.
October 20th, 2008 02:43 PM
Lets talk M1
Questions: Who makes the best commercial M1 Carbine?
What kind of numbers($$)are we talkin' ?
Talk about how 30 carbine ammo has improved
since I last shot one 15 yrs. ago
Might make a good "partner" to a 12 ga. Remington for HD
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82d Abn(1983-86)OIF 2007-08
Glock 19&26/ Colt Gov't & OM/Ruger SP101
Retired NYS LEO / NRA Life Member
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"no kidding,gun slinging,spurs hitting the floor"
October 20th, 2008 02:59 PM
A 30.06/ .308 just might.
Originally Posted by Rusty Bouquett
Actually, I'm a huge shotgun fan but some recent events I've been a part of suggests that the mighty 12 is over rated. Shot placement and knowledge stops fights, not weight, FPS or anything else.
October 20th, 2008 03:32 PM
A 12ga has its place but so does a .22LR.
You have to look at your intended use and not hype. Nothing is a one stop shot to me, I plan on having to fire multiple rounds to put someone down.
Even with good shot placement you can not be 100% sure of a one stop shot.
The .30 carbine gives me .357mag veloicities and rapid fire controlability, which is why it is the only long gun that sleeps outside of the safe at night in my house.
“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein,
October 23rd, 2008 10:52 AM
This thread has been going for a while however a good one. I love the 30 cal carbine. Not known for the best firepower out there, but withing 50 yds great gun. Like others said with soft point and the quick follow up shots and large capacity mags this is one hell of a rifle. I love mine. By the way I saw some good deals on Gunbroker the other day. Check them out.
October 23rd, 2008 03:10 PM
Unless the "first shot" hits something that physically causes someone to fall (and there are only a few places in the body that would do that, all of which are tough shots on good days), no single round should be relied upon as a "one-shot-stopper". A shotgun is no exception to that rule. In the majority of cases, people falling as a result of being shot aren't do it because the shot made them fall, but because of a psychological element that many have saying "I've been shot, I'm supposed to fall."
Dr. Gary Roberts on the M1 Carbine
The .30 caliber M1 Carbine 110 gr FMJ military bullets have a typical velocity of 1970 f/s. As these are non-deforming, non-fragmenting projectiles, they produces minimal tissue damage, somewhat similar to the U. S. 9 mm NATO M882 124 gr FMJ. While M1 carbines have a poor reputation when using GI ball ammo, good expanding bullets offer a stunning leap in incapacitation potential and should cause us to rethink the M1 carbine as a self defense rifle and even as a LE patrol rifle for agencies that won’t allow AR15’s for whatever asinine reasons. The M1 Carbine is a very viable choice as a personal defense weapon for use out to 100 yards or so; in many ways, the M1 Carbine was the M4 of it's era (1940's to early 1960's) and can still be effective today when fed the right ammunition.
With expanding 110 gr projectiles, the .30 caliber M1 Carbine creates a temporary cavity stretch that is slightly larger than that produced by heavy expanding .357 Magnum hunting loads and may be able to produce permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture injuries in tissues susceptible to stretch insults, such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder. The best ammunition choice for the M1 Carbine is the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR)--at an average velocity of 1864 f/s, it expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is comparable intermediate barrier performance to many good .223 loads. The Winchester 110 gr JSP also works reasonably well, but has a bit smaller permanent wound channel compared to the Remington load. In addition, the new Corbon load using the Barnes DPX bullet appears to be promising. Conversely, the Federal 110 gr JSP carbine bullet acts just like ball without any expansion. Hornady 90 gr JHP-XTP bullets offered insufficient penetration when fired from the carbine. When practicing, just use inexpensive non-corrosive FMJ, either from CMP or some other reasonably priced source.
Fulton Armory does an outstanding job on M1 Carbine re-builds and is highly recommended. To maximize the reliability of the M1 carbine, only use USGI weapons, as most commercial M1 Carbine clones have not proven as reliable as GI. It is a good idea to use an M2 mag catch, run a flip safety instead of the push button, and have a second head-spaced bolt ready for use, as this is a weak area. Sights are typical military iron variety, although one can mount an optical sight with some difficulty. Accuracy is typically in the 3-4 MOA range, not great, but at least as good as the AK's. Typical reliability is around one easily cleared feeding failure per 500 or so rounds--no big deal. The M1 carbine stock has nearly perfect LOP as is, even with body armor on--I feel no need to try and add a collapsible stock to these weapons.
In general, avoid commercial magazines; GI 15 round mags typically are the most reliable, although some GI 30 rounders work ok...Wolff makes new mag springs that can help. The Black Hawk 2oz Duty Mace pouch (52DMP2BK) indeed makes a very nice belt mag pouch for a M1 carbine 15 round magazine. 15 rd M1 carbine mags fit adequately into Paraclete triple flash bang pouches (BPP0707); the Paraclete flash light pouch (FLH0077) works OK to hold a single 30 round mag.
A simple way to attach accessories to get a small section of Pic Rail--we’ve used the long PRI ones installed on Mk12 Mod 0 SPR’s and then cut the rails to desired size with a hack saw (you can get 4 pieces out of the long PRI rail), smooth and polish the cuts with a file, Dremel Tool, and sand paper, then drill some holes in the rail piece and counter sink, spray the rail with flat black paint and let dry. Next drill some holes completely through your standard GI stock, use T-nuts and stainless steel bolts purchased at your local hardware store to fix the prepared Pic rail section to the stock. Attach the light of your choice--both the SF X300 and SF G2 work well.
Recently, the following modifications have improved the utility of M1 carbines for real world use:
-- Ultimak fore-ends
-- Aimpoint M3’s in Leup 30 mm med matte QRW rings or even better, T1’s in LaRue mounts.
-- SF 6v G2's in VTAC mounts
-- Blue Force Gear VCAS slings
-- London Bridge M1 carbine stock pouches (see another pouch source here: CMP Discussion Forum - Garand stock pouches and other things
In general, the AR15 is a better choice for a patrol rifle or self-defense, as it is more accurate, more ergonomic, still in current production, and there are more accessories available, however, if you live in an overly restrictive state, modified M1 Carbines with good ammo make useful PC alternatives to M4's and AK's.
Think of the M1 carbine as a 100 yard PDW; they are light, handy, and fun to shoot--sort of like an MP5.
October 25th, 2008 02:35 PM
Worried over its size to clear rooms and such?!
Its an after market stock, but the rifle is an original Inland.
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