1st round less lethals

This is a discussion on 1st round less lethals within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Not on your life....

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Thread: 1st round less lethals

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Not on your life.

    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

    Theodore Roosevelt

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  3. #17
    JD
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    Key word less lethal.

    less lethal does not = non lethal.

    I can only mirror on points made by Sixto, Rob72, and Buckeye.

  4. #18
    Member Array Doctorbarn's Avatar
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    I don't want to make the BG mad...if I'm shooting it's not for show!
    One man with a gun can control 100 without one.
    Vladimir Lenin

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    That sums it up nicely, why take the gamble? Less lethal is always backed up by lethal, unless you have that luxury, forget about less lethal all together. Chances are you get one shot to save your life.
    I sincerely hope that I can go through my life without ever having to point my gun at anyone, but if I do, it's going to be because I believe mine or my family's life is in danger and I'm going to shoot to immediately stop the threat. I think Sixto really hit the nail on the head. Given the close quarters inside a home, you may only get one shot to stop the threat and I'm not willing to risk my family's safety to preserve the life of the person threatening that safety.

    Hoss
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  6. #20
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    From a litigation stand point, in my opinion your better off shooting them dead, if necessary. Pain and suffering is expensive. The longer the death is drawn out, the more you will have to pay the family of the dead bad guy. This was advice I got from an Lawyer who travels the US, specializing in defending cops who get into shootings.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Paladin132's Avatar
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    I couple of points: 1. If you are not trained in the use of less leathal weapons, then it is a leathal weapon in your hands. For example, if you try to take a baton from a patrol officer, he is most likely going to let you have it. Why, you ask? Because once it is in your hands he can back away, not have you going for his gun, present his firearm, and now you have a leathal weapon b/c of your not using it in a less lethal fashion... 2. I am unsure if these weapons are available to the public. Anyone know? 3. For those of you who are concerned about the first round not stopping someone: I have seen these things used in the field by soliders - you get hit by one even at range and you go down hurt. If you get back up and do anything but flee, well then you are aching for someone to do you in. These things HURT. Don't believe that anyone is going to not stop when they get hit by one - they are going to momentarily at least. Sure, someone out there may not, but they are few and far between.

    As for my opinion? I think I would load one first if I had it and it was legal. I would have to check with local LEO though to make sure that it was ok, and then follow up with #4 and 00.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJake View Post
    From a litigation stand point, in my opinion your better off shooting them dead, if necessary. Pain and suffering is expensive. The longer the death is drawn out, the more you will have to pay the family of the dead bad guy. This was advice I got from an Lawyer who travels the US, specializing in defending cops who get into shootings.
    In Texas the castle doctrine prevents any civil attempt to extort money from you in a good self defense shoot which is the way it should be everywhere
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin132 View Post
    ... 2. I am unsure if these weapons are available to the public. Anyone know? .........As for my opinion? I think I would load one first if I had it and it was legal. I would have to check with local LEO though to make sure that it was ok, and then follow up with #4 and 00.
    I can't answer if they are legal in your state or city, but as for availability, yes. Ammunition To Go -- Less Than Lethal. Take notice though of the following warning on the rubber shot:
    This ammunition has a high probability of being lethal or producing Severe Damage at a distance less than 12 feet.

    For regular beanbags, the warning is the same.

    On the stabilized beanbags, it says:
    This round produces a painful and powerful blunt impact at 7 to 20 yards, which reduces your liability profile in relations to lethal ammunition.
    Though it doesn't say it, the implication would be that it should not be used at less than 7 yards. The layout of your home may vary, but in my home, due to walls, doors, hallways, etc., it would be almost impossible for me to take a shot at less than 21 feet and very few places that would be less than 12 feet.

    Hoss
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  10. #24
    Member Array JudoJake's Avatar
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    I lived in Texas for a while. I have to admit, I didn't like it much. It was way too hot, and I was too tall to get under any of the trees. Brownsville if you were wandering.

    However you have just given me a reason to consider moving back.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
    I think (suspect) that a prosecutor/jury would be very apt to see a shotgun fired by a homeowner at a BG as lethal force regardless of the round fired. When you attempted to argue that you were using "less than lethal" force, with a lethal instrument (said shotgun), your argument would fall on deaf ears and you would perceived as some sort of household ninja.

    If lethal force is warranted, shoot to stop. Keep shooting to stop until the BG stops. If lethal force isn't warranted, don't fire any firearm of any kind with any type of ammo.

    My 2 cents.

    +1
    I can only use my weapon if I (or family member) are in direct and immediate lethal danger. If that's the case, I would not want the BG to say ouch. I would want him to stop.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    D
    oes anyone use a first round bean bag or rubber buckshot/slug in their HD shotgun?
    NO!!!


    Why would it be or not be a good idea?

    If I need to shoot someone it is because the life of a family member, the life of an innocent victim or my life is in grave danger. A so called less than lethal whizbang would not get the job done.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    In a situation that requires you to use deadly force, being a nice guy can get you killed.

    There are times to be nice, and there are times that require sudden application of lethal force. A burglary, robbery, or home invasion falls under the later IMO.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Let's add to the pile:
    say you use your rubber buck on homie, going for a belly shot. Oops! You pulled the shot and hit him in the groin, rupturing both testicles. How much do you think a claim of "willful and intentional maiming by castration" will cost you. Sounds funny, but start thinking dollars....$..$$..$$$..$$$$

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ada229 View Post
    I guess its just the nice guy in me
    When it comes to protecting your life nice guys finish last.

    Use real ammo. If by chance you do kill or seriously injure him with a bean bag you will have used lethal force (gun) when you deemed it not suitable.

    The only Less Lethal force you need is a closed door. If they defeat that then do not hold back to save them.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ada229 View Post
    Does anyone use a first round bean bag or rubber buckshot/slug in their HD shotgun? Why would it be or not be a good idea? Its something I've considered, I guess its just the nice guy in me
    I'm a nice guy but I reserve nicety for family, friends, and upstanding, taxpaying, law-abiding citizens. Ne'r-do-well evil doers need not apply. Such types love to manipulate us nice guys. I believe in using the firearm with it's proper traditionally lethal ammunition only. I particularly don't wish to be nice with half measures.

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