Application of bird shot for home defense
This is a discussion on Application of bird shot for home defense within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Having shot someone a 9 MM and four rounds of 00 buck in addition to the other 9MM rounds and 40 S&W he was shot ...
January 3rd, 2009 01:02 PM
Application of bird shot for home defense
Having shot someone a 9 MM and four rounds of 00 buck in addition to the other 9MM rounds and 40 S&W he was shot with what actually made him drop the gun was when one of the OO buck rounds blew the gun out of his hand taking his thumb with it. Though mortally wounded it took him some time to expire. Had I not blown the gun out of his had I am not sure how much longer the situation would have continued.
Once again we are back to the discussion of combative anatomy, the study of stopping an attackers ability to continue the attack as fast as possible, not trying to kill them eventually.
For someone to attack you there are basically three things they need-sight, base and air. For the sake of our discussion I will add the ability to hold a weapon.
Taking into account the dwelling in which you reside what is it made of and what are your probable distances to engage a target? For me, I live in an old farm house where 7 yards would be on the outside of what distance I would physically be able to engage a target in the house. Most likely it would be well under 5 yards.
If you believe someone is in your house you can do one of two things, wait for them or hunt them. For folks without room clearing skills I would definitely suggest waiting. This goes for my wife, who in my absence would hopefully take the kids into the safe room before locking and chocking the door. The idea is that if the intruder leaves without finding them good, but if he does and decides to breach the locked door he will make a lot of noise doing it and during that time will be standing right in front of the door creating a fatal funnel.
If he is coming through the door, chances are his hands will be somewhere around mid chest. If taking cover behind a bed or piece of furniture there is a good chance that you will be shooting up. So with using our bird shot we deliver several rounds into the attacker. There is an excellent chance that these rounds are going to strike his upper chest, face and hands. Bird shot into the face and hands will effect his sight, air and ability to hold a weapon or use his hands at all. Also interesting to note that even if he is wearing heavy winter clothing or body armor his hands and face will likely be exposed or minimally covered. This also severely lessens the chances of over penetration associated with rifle/pistol rounds and slugs.
I would not of course advocate the use of bird shot outside of the house for self defense. But inside a residence I believe it is an excellent option for many. Not to mention bird shot is the most controllable load for the shotgun. This application is not based on the ability on what a trained, confident person may be able to accomplish but rather for the person that may be limited by training, law, or budget to increase their survivability during a home defense scenario.
I think that all things being equal that round of bird shot to the face will stop someone faster than a handgun round to the chest.
Realizing this flies in the face of conventional wisdom I am interested in hearing your thoughts.
January 3rd, 2009 01:02 PM
January 3rd, 2009 01:11 PM
Penetration is the only thing that will fully stop an attacker. If I am forced to defend myself or family , I want to stop the attacker for good. While bird shot may incapacitate them , they may get up, flee or be able to still attack (maybe or maybe not with firearm).
I have seen non lethal hits from birdshot. It seems to shred the skin and maybe some muscle.
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January 3rd, 2009 01:15 PM
I understand your point, that birdshot can stop an attack by incapacitating the BG with suface wounds to the hands or face.
But this is IMO much more iffy than deep wounds to the heart lungs or CNS caused by 00 or #4 Buck.
I still cannot recommend anything smaller than #4 buck for HD
Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....
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January 3rd, 2009 01:53 PM
I have read your first sentence five times and I still can't understand what you mean.
Having shot someone a 9 MM and four rounds of 00 buck in addition to the other 9MM rounds and 40 S&W he was shot with what actually made him drop the gun was when one of the OO buck rounds blew the gun out of his hand taking his thumb with it.
January 3rd, 2009 01:59 PM
With the availability of the new modern "tactical" shotgun #00 and #4 buckshot with flight control wadding and low recoil loads, there is absolutely no need to even think of bird shot for self defense in the home . . . period.
There is no guarantee that you will be able to effectively place a shot to the face.
Low recoil, flight control buckshot will not spread like bird shot in the same distance (home defense distances) and the recoil is even more controllable/less harsh than regular 2 3/4" bird shot loads.
I just returned from a range a few minutes ago. I patterned several different buckshot loads and some bird shot. The #00 9 pellet and the #4 27 pellet Federal ammo patterned at a about 6" spread at 30 feet. The birsdshot spread at least twice that.
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January 3rd, 2009 02:28 PM
I don't care who you are, get hit with a good game load (#6 or 7 1/2) from a choked 12ga.bird gun. At a inside SD range of 8-10ft in COM your going to have serious damage inside a 2in hole.
While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3
January 3rd, 2009 05:06 PM
I keep the Mossy loaded with 7 rounds of 00 in the mag tube and 6 more on the side saddle
wouldn't do it any other way
IMO...only birds should be shot with bird shot (other than practice at the range of course)
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January 3rd, 2009 05:35 PM
For an extensive, geletin photo examples of birdshot v. Buckshot/slug see this excellent work and post here: Birdshot - bad; buckshot - good
View topic - 12 gauge Wound Profiles (56k beware) Examples on page 4
21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps & NRA Life Member since 1972
“You have never lived, ’till you have almost died. And for those who fight for it, life has a flavor that the protected will never know.”
January 3rd, 2009 06:40 PM
While I know for a fact that birdshot can kill you just as dead as a load of Buck, I dont think its the best tool for the job.
It's just too "iffy".
If its all you got, then its better than nothing, but its sort of like using a small hammer to do a job that requires a sledgehammer.
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January 3rd, 2009 07:44 PM
If by Bird shot your talking about #2s or BB's then I think there are some good arguments for those heaviest of the "bird shot" range of loads.
January 3rd, 2009 09:17 PM
If all you have handy is bird shot, and you need it now, its better than nothing. If I had time, I'd dump out the birdshot and fill it with BBs.
If you have a choice there's seriously no reason to use it.
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January 5th, 2009 04:15 PM
Having seen this in two places now: let's clarify.
To most non-shotgunners, "birdshot" means low-brass #7 or 8 from Wally World. Really poor choice in selection for most any reasonable application for "large game."
I've seen #7 used in Corrections. It will convey the message to "stop" at 30 yards, if the individual isn't seriously determined and/or doesn't think he can make it out of range of the Tower and the Mini-14 first. Pretty damn persuasive from the doorway into a cell, but there's the "fish-in-a-barrel" aspect to that.
If you're talking about high-brass and heavier shot, that's more specialized, and really needs more direct comparison to the Low-Recoil loads to validate it's overall practicality.
#4 highwall is a bit more stout than #7 low, but not 00 buck. Equally, I wouldn't rate it too differently from #4 or 00 buck Low-Recoil (subjectively), so...
FWIW, I've seen someone pinned by a truck in a loading bay, alive and conscious, with the bumperpads touching the wall. Yes, he did expire when the truck was moved. Point being, I'm not inclined not to use a Mack if circumstances warrant and allow. Weird things happen, and individual variables always play a part, but ...
The problem of context arises when it isn't clearly defined.
January 5th, 2009 05:13 PM
1+ Box of Truth.....
Originally Posted by AVIVIII
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January 16th, 2009 04:29 PM
LOL. Imagine finding you here! I was looking for HD ammo info and ran across your post.
Originally Posted by cphilip
January 16th, 2009 07:18 PM
Miscue!!!! From the old days at Automags dot org!
How you been dude? Yea... I am all over the gun boards man. And of course scooters, knives, Diesel vehicles... all those sorts of things.
Me? My recommend is Fiocchi Low recoil 00 buck.
And welcome to the Site dude.
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