14" Shotguns? PICS?!

14" Shotguns? PICS?!

This is a discussion on 14" Shotguns? PICS?! within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I am interested in purchasing a 14" 12 ga shotgun. Trying to get my feet wets in AOW and/or auto weapons....my question is this is ...

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Thread: 14" Shotguns? PICS?!

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    14" Shotguns? PICS?!

    I am interested in purchasing a 14" 12 ga shotgun. Trying to get my feet wets in AOW and/or auto weapons....my question is this is it a $5 tax stamp for these like a typical AOW or is it like a stamp for a auto weapon? How long is the turnaournd time on paperwork to get approved? Who here has a 14 and wants to share pictures???
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  2. #2
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    I use a dept issued 14"that I qualified with but dont have a pic of it.

    If the shotgun was built as a short barreled shotgun its only a 5$ AOW fee, such as the 6" Serbu, its only a 5 dollar fee.

    If you want to take an existing shot gun and put a short barrel on it and turn it into a short barreled shotgun, the fee is 200$.

    I know it doesnt make sense, but a lot of the NFA dont.

    Paper work is currently running 4-6 months. I know one individual that is going over 4 and one that is approaching 6.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Have a look at this.

    Makes a 14" look like a goose gun.

    Blue Line Activities Online Shop
    Last edited by GunnyBunny; June 1st, 2009 at 10:14 PM.
    CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

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    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    Check out Tromix.com, but be prepared for a wait (works out good so you can save your nickels!) Mucho buckos.

  5. #5
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    I got one, I'll post a pic next week if I remember.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Here's what I use, when forced to use the shotty....
    Attached Images
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #7
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    To be truthful, there aint that much difference between a 14" and an 18" as far as handling. About the only place you'll notice it is entering.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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  8. #8
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    You'll notice when trying to knock over steel plates at 15 yards and out during IPSC stages, that's for sure! :)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I just this past Friday got my Form 4 documents toward an SBS signed by my town chief of police.
    It's been a battle ongoing since December. I live in MA.

    I'd fought folks on principle, and to prove a point, upon being told by not one but two local town PDs that possession of an SBS in MA is unlawful. They were adamant about this, and contrary to the clear as day statements to the contrary in the Mass. General Laws.

    The deal is...

    Any Other Weapon = $5 ATF Tax Stamp
    An 'AOW' shotgun is a shotgun that has 1) Barrel less than 18" _AND_ 2) a grip with no stock as in 'pistol grip'.

    Short Barrel Shotgun = $200 ATF Tax Stamp
    An SBS shotgun is a shotgun that has 1) Barrel less than 18" _AND_ 2) a Stock.

    There is no regard what so ever at the Federal level toward whether or not the shotgun was purchased as manufactured in either configuration or was 'made' as in reconfigured to as much be it by a third party or the actual owner.
    Such limitations though do occur and are relevant at the state level such as in MA...where the as defined 'shotgun' be it an AOW or SBS may not have been converted, modified, or in any other way reconfigured into becoming an AOW or SBS. Only firearms as manufactured and sold as such OEM may be possessed in MA as such whilst meeting the definition of a 'shotgun'. I fought, and won this argument, taking my fight as far as the MA Attorney Generals office for clarity. Again as I noted it's been a long road.

    Below are images of of both type of Class III 'National Firearms Act' (NFA) applicable 'shotguns'.

    AOW

    Source - SHOT Show 2002 - Day 3

    SBS



    BTW there is no regard toward barrel length at the Federal level as related to NFA regulations once the shotgun barrel is less than 18" in length as measured from the chamber to barrels end (excluding any choke device that might be installed if applicable). The barrel could be 17.75" in length regardless of whether it has a 'grip' or stock be it folding, adjustable, or fixed...and boom you got a very serious Federal law NFA violation with a Class 3 weapon. Don't take my word for it though, just ask Randy Weaver.
    As well the barrel could be 10" rather than 14"...it's still just as much an NFA item as any other shotgun under 18" in barrel length.
    But what does affect things is if the barrel length is 18" but the overall length of the shotgun including receiver and stock is less than 26" in _total_ length including the barrel.
    Any smooth bore shotgun that does not meet the above circumstances is deemed to be a be Federal definition "firearm" and is sub classified there in as either a pistol, short-barrel shotgun, or short-barrel rifle.

    For more on this and the National Firearms Act of 1934 go to; http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm

    - Janq will be cutting a check for $200 to the ATF toward an already bought and paid for been sitting for 6 months at my FFL 14" Mossberg 590A1 Compact SBS

    P.S. - I would have folded on this and sent the shotgun back to the distributor for a full refund _IF_ my first contact with the local police toward sign off had not resulted in me being spoken to rudely, me feeling as though I'm a criminal and having to answer questions about why I want to buy a lawful (!) item, followed by statements to me that were not only false but additional incorrect anecdotal 'proof' purported to me so as to support the reasoning that as much is not lawful. all this from a LEO who I was told is the "authority" in my town on firearms laws and regs. He did not appreciate that I too can read, and better yet have comprehension skills too even as toward legalese.
    I choose not to fold and let it slide as it would not be right to allow myself to be wronged and effectively as well as capriciously denied, as based on lies and ignorance.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Rem 870 Police, factory Mod 14" heavy bbl, ghost ring tritium sights, SBS, so Price + $200 stamp:



    Handles 2-3/4" and 3" shells. With the right 2-3/4" ammo, such as Winchester Super-X #1 Buck, it'll hold 5 in the tube, one in the chamber, and four spares in the stock (two on each side). Light and nimble for ease of maneuvering in tighter spaces. Shot dispersion is noticeably wider at 5, 7 and 10yds than an 18" or 20" Rem 870. It's a bit hard (for me) to handle 3" #00 buck due to the lighter weight/balance of this gun, though 3" #1 is tolerable. My choice is either 2-3/4" #1 or 2-3/4" #00.

    Range report: click.
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Janq - did you consider the trust route so you wouldn't need a CLEO signature? It sounds like it was a matter of principal for you, but I was curious if you'd ruled it out for one reason or another.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    A key item of distinction toward the above ^^

    The 'firearm' was not "modified" it was as 'manufactured' an SBS.
    In states like MA this is a key point of distinction, which my local LEOs from two major towns did not understand nor comprehend even as I showed them a direct copy of the MGL.

    Where as the exact _same_ resulting gun as the above 870 as sold by Wilson under the Scattergun Technologies brand as _modified_ by installation of a short/shortened barrel on to the receiver of what was once a standard and non NFA related shotgun upon said action then _becomes_ not only an NFA item but is a 'modified' NFA firearm to be designated as an SBS...or an AOW if the stock is changed secondarily to a pistol grip type as with the primary act of attaching a reduced length barrel.

    Further if the shotgun is as 'manufactured' an SBS or AOW then no additional marking(s) need to be made to the barrel and/or the receiver while with a 'modified' type shotgun with a short barrel does by Federal law require permanent marking by being engraved on to the barrel identifying information as related to the transferee.

    Very specific items and conditions to be aware of.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Janq - did you consider the trust route so you wouldn't need a CLEO signature? It sounds like it was a matter of principal for you, but I was curious if you'd ruled it out for one reason or another.
    Good question Matiki, and same that my FFL and several others I referred to asked/suggested.

    I am owner/founder and CEO of a corporation ('Class C').
    Very easily I could have simply made the choice to circumvent the local issue and fill out the paperwork as a corporate acquisition.

    For persons who do not happen to be in the same situation as I am _or_ who do not wish to attach a personal purchase to that of a business entity for a number of very valid reasons (accounting, reporting of assets and non-line item 'fee' both publicly and/or to the Board and/or investors, etc.) then they can set up a 'trust' which is effectively a limited scope of function corporation to do same.

    As you likely know here in America under all government laws Federal, state, and local a corporation is recognized effectively as being an entity. Same applies to a trust, though again in relatively limited scope and function.
    Very many people go the trust route to walk around reporting and call it a day. But setting up a trust is not completely without cost and additional paperwork.

    As related to that option alone again on general principal I choose to not go there.
    Why? Because why should I have to?
    Why should a paper entity have greater rights and respect (!) as a non-being than me a person who has no criminal record (which has not been by accident nor without effort) and is an active participant n my community locally as well as nationally?! Never mind that I am a human being, unlike a paper based entity corporation/trust.
    Yes the option was there and I just happened to be able to afford an extra ~$200 on top of the $200 to pay an attorney to set up a trust for this single acquisition..or spend my own time which is money doing same. But again why should I or any free person citizen have to do as much?!

    So my own personal choice and stand on that option was no.

    Either I get what I want following all applicable laws and regulations and fees (I had to pay an additional $10 for passport photos made same day as my CLEO appointment and $5 on top of that to cover the cost of the dept. fingerprinting me on two ATF supplied cards) or I on principal take it and keep taking it to whom ever and where ever.
    I was emotionally prepared to if necessary represent myself in state court if need be, which I until last Monday began to think would be the final disposition on this, again for the simple primary reason of principal.

    I'd encourage anyone else be they in MA or where ever to if they can stomach it do similar same if and when they too find them self being shrugged off. Folks here and everywhere wonder how did this or that come to be this way. To my view it came from folk, regular every day folk, not standing up for them self if even on the balance nothing is at stake but principal.

    After all I've been through on this I will never sell this gun and plan to modify my will so that it is to be reserved for transfer to my children when I pass. I'll be sure to reserve as well for them $215 toward coverage of all applicable fees.

    - Janq

    P.S. - My corporation is not based in MA so although technically and legally I could have gotten around that problem too with legal maneuvering so that I as an officer could transport the firearm back to MA where I now happen to live, that too would have meant either dollars for a specialist attorney and/or even more of my own time along with now two states of legal wrangling plus the ATF too.
    The clear and most efficient route for me was to stick to my guns and press what I knew was right.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #14
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    I'd encourage anyone else be they in MA or where ever to if they can stomach it do similar same if and when they too find them self being shrugged off. Folks here and everywhere wonder how did this or that come to be this way. To my view it came from folk, regular every day folk, not standing up for them self if even on the balance nothing is at stake but principal
    Bravo !
    Excellent Janq!

    With people like you in MA. there may be hope yet.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  15. #15
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Thanks for the response Janq. My wife and I have a trust already, and when we confirmed with our Attorney that guns could be added it was a no-brainer for us. If I had to set up the trust from scratch, I wouldn't - at least - not just to get a single NFA stamp.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

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