This is a discussion on S&W M&P-15 Exploded within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Wonder if we can change the title of this thread to "Remington ammo destroys Ar-15". Seems a little more accurate. Lots of Smith bashing has ...
Wonder if we can change the title of this thread to "Remington ammo destroys Ar-15". Seems a little more accurate. Lots of Smith bashing has ensued throughout the internet and mine and every other one a personally know of has been a quality firearm.
The Second Amendment ...... Because crime SHOULD be a hazardous occupation.
If you want to piss off a conservative, lie to him.
If you want to piss off a liberal, tell him the truth.
We've had here just two incidents total, and _BOTH_ have been ammunition related incidents as toward Remington.
As noted above a lot of S&W bashing going on that was and is unfounded.
Folk basing their views on completely different model firearms (i.e. decade ago Sigma model pistols) that have nothing at all to do with the AR15 platform nor this as manufactured model in specific.
Irrational hysteria....That _every_ mfr. including <fill in the name of any and every gun maker!> has suffered from and deals with.
I'm really wanting one of these...less than $1000 round here, minus the BUIS and quad rail. I was kind of skeptical because of this thread, but this problem could've happened to any AR, I think
Trust in God and keep your powder dry
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
how can we be sure it was the ammo. we dont have any indication from remington they ever admitted it was nor do we have a clear explanation from S$W exactly how they claim the ammo caused the failure. seems to me if the ammo had a double charge or whatnot the OP would have noticed the big bang, ect...
also why is it that we dont have AR's from other manufactures exploding from remington ammo?
What else could it be then? Improper construction of the gun?
USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
I am the God fearing, gun toting, flag waving conservative you were warned about!
I thinkwe should wait and see what Lee says. Or someone can try and contact Remington and point them to this thread to see what they say.
Further it would not exclusively take an over charged round for this to occur.
An undercharged round would in fact better approximate the condition as reported by the OP.
Also that of a squib fire scenario as well, which is also due to undercharge, resulting in a barrel obstruction at some point along it's length with the follow on standard/normal charge going off and resulting in a chamber over pressure condition due to the barrel obstruction...which can and in guns past have been shot out by the follow on round.
Additionally as related to your question of sound ("bigbang"), if the shooter was wearing hearing protection as he should be at a range AND with that he was double eared as I and many other shooters will do (which is optimal) then it's very possible he would not notice at all a difference in sound pressure. The ears actively reduce and/or as with electronic ears (I run Peltor 6A with 29db reduction) been nearly completely obscured. I know when I'm shooting my own .223 as with commercial ammo the sound pressure to my own senses is very low as by norm.
Add to it that if he had not been firing single shot but instead repeat fire, not even fast but moderate, then again it would be likely he would not notice an overpowered nor underpowered shot charge as by sound pressure alone, nor even relative as felt recoil or movement of the action.
This happens to many shooters with many guns of all manner of manufacture, design and action type.
Almost always on the whole it comes back to and is the result of the ammunition. It's a thing that happens with guns and ammo, like how low octane gas will result in ping and damage with gas engines. Which is not a fault or design issue with the engine.
Lastly exact same instances have been reported toward other manufacturers.
Just not here, yet...
"my bushmaster just blew up in my face"
Source - sniper central forums
"Bushmaster carbon 15 exploded today!! "
Bushmaster carbon 15 exploded today!! - Calguns.net
" M4 blow up . **Updated with pics!!** detailed report added."
Source - http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=16&t=201974FINDINGS:
Colt M4 carbine, SN XXXXXXX suffered a catastrophic failure due to one or multiple bore obstructions attributed to the previous use training ammunition. One or more projectiles were lodged in the bore of the weapon prior to the firing of standard ball ammunition.
The projectiles lodged in the bore of the barrel created an obstruction or obstructions which precipitated the subsequent failure of the structural integrity of the weapon receiver and bolt upon firing.
The damage suffered by the weapon is consistent with that normally associated with bore obstructions in conjunction with the firing of high-pressure rifle cartridges.
Source - AR- 15 KABOOM
There are more, many more.
Manufacturers do not normally warrant against damage never mind catastrophic failure of firearms as related to ammunition source errors and _induced_ malfunctions. Including commonly referred to "kaboom" events.
To expect as much from firearm manufacturers, any manufacturer,is simply unreasonable as they have no way to control what or how operators might feed, care for, or abuse the product upon time of post purchase possession. This applies to any and all types of firearm, not just S&W nor the AR15 in specific.
These things happen, on occasion.
It sucks for all involved; Owner/Operator, firearm manufacturer (who gets bad mouthed about their product, unfairly/erroneously), and that of the ammo manufacturer too.
As well this concept of ammunition induced malfunction and/or catastrophic failure is a basic component of firearms function knowledge.
It's taught in intro to firearms courses civilian and military as well.
Guns go kaboom is a thing that does at times occur, like flat tires on cars, considering these things are managing controlled explosions and forcing that redirected energy as into a small high pressure containment area at the chamber.
So if S&W ARs have the suck for just two instances by some folks analysis in this thread.
Then Bushmaster and Colt do as well, and so does every other firearm manufacturer out there as they all have had gun go kaboom instances. For that matter all guns are just a kaboom waiting to happen, so lets for public safety reasons demand a stop of manufacture and sale of any and all guns.
Or at least all of the ones made of thin and junk aluminum uppers and/or lowers...Such as specifically the M16/M4/AR15/AR10 type firearm.
But then to think as much would of course be unreasonable as taken against the _balance_ of all the firearms manufactured and running, the vast majority of which have not had such a problem.
P.S. - It took me less than five minutes time, total, to locate the above instances of exact same result related to Colt & Bushmaster product kabooms. Again there are many others out there.
What has been interesting to me across now three threads here are that some folks have stated that all they have ever heard of are instances toward the S&W M&P15. All two of them.
But for some odd reason they have not heard of these many other instances as by other manufacturers (?). Either they are brand new to the AR game as in this year OR they are ignoring these instances as by other manufacturers which have been widely reported and detailed at pretty much every gunfu forum I've ever heard of.
But because of this thread alone and/or the other from prior, where Remington ammo was confirmed to have been the issue, people here have stated they choose to not purchase S&W product and will tell others same.
That makes no sense at all.
i agree with pretty much everything you said but it seems its all speculation @ this point.
the only thing i have been able to determine is that S$W dropped the ball on handling it and admitted so. not the first i have seen this from them.
WOW. I hope all the guys/girls were ok. That's crazy. We have a 50Cal explode overseas and hit one of the guys on the boat. They took out most of the scrapnel, but couldn't get it all out. Headspace and Timing was out.
It took just inside of 90 days, as based on the OP's own time line from date of occurrence to date of check receipt.
In my book as related to catastrophic failure of any kind of product that is pretty much normal time frame, if not slightly on the shirt side of time.
Further S&W per the OPs statements found the firearm itself to not be at fault.
It's not reasonable to expect any mfr. to simply ship out a check or new gun to the user next day or next week or even next month for feeling bad because the owners product failed catastrophically as by result of a condition that is not a manufacturing defect.
With a firearm in specific toward an event like this it's pretty well known that the cause of such a result is almost always going to be either operator error such as not handling the firearm correctly or failure to maintain the firearm properly. Any manufacturer would check the internals for such a condition including the barrel as well for lead and other deposits build up.
Outside of user error, all fingers point to the source of combustion...The ammunition.
Be it centerfire, rimfire,or heck even blackpowder based inline or muzzleloaded firearms.
Same thing and this does and has occurred with literally all firearms from ever maker.
In a case like this the owner/operator is looking for help.
He just dropped a grand or more on a product that now is non-functional and quite possibly is in pieces and parts.
He can go to the gun mfr. and/or to the ammo mfr.
The ammo people of course are going to say go see the gun maker. The gun maker says send us your gun for analysis and they check basic stuff that any of us could do as well. Bore, magazine & well, bolt and carrier, bolt face, chamber/breech face, and what if anything is left of the receiver. Normal and no brainer stuff.
They will either find evidence of material malfunction, as in a defect.
Or they will find evidence of user/operator mishandling in the specific area of maintenance.
Or they will find nothing at all. With nothing at all they the mfr. tell the owner/operator sorry but we found nothing wrong. What ammo did you use and where did it come from?
That last item ammo is again quite common.
At that point how these things as I've seen them on the internet typically go is the owner/operator then expects or even demands that the mfr. go to war _for them_ as against the ammo maker OR that they take pity on their situation and hand them over a new gun and if they don't then they'll make a huge stink of it as on the internet. See that guy from a year ago with the FN FiveSeven (not either of these two cases here at DC.com)...He is a perfect example of as much, even as he had been using reloaded (!) ammunition.
Mfrs. state in the first page or two of EVERY owners manual I've ever seen that they expressly do not warrant against failures of any sort as related to ammunition, be it reloaded or commercial manufacture.
Quite simply by economics alone they cannot. do so anyway. If they did then guns would cost two or three times actual as at MAP to compensate for such possibility as an insurance, for them and owners.
So...How can we as owners better or best deal with this considering that by basic function of firearm use such an event can occur to literally anyone?
Simple. Contact your home or auto insurance agent and request specifically 'firearm insurance'. Review the policy by eye _reading_ it in full, don't just ask the agent and take his word for it (!), and be sure that it covers not only theft and loss by fire or flood but ALSO _accidental damage_ and/or destruction.
The NRA firearms policy does not offer such coverage so do not assume that by having their policy one is thus covered. You are not.
Do a little extra leg work, write a check for like $100/yr...And by that you are then well covered toward items such as this which again do occur.
Then that way you are not beholden to the selective kindness of a gun mfr. nor the timeliness of an ammo mfr. to reimburse you for your loss be it directly or as was in the other thread event indirectly...Which also took some 90 days or so to conclude.
How much is S&W paying you per word on this thread? Just kidding!!!
As I've said before, I don't get a penny from S&W.
Nothing. Further I'd say the same thing if had happened to have been a Colt or Bushmaster product. The position remains same regardless of who the top tier AR manufacturer might be.
BTW I type, rather than keyboard, so for me typing a few paragraphs is nothing and takes little time at all.
My last post above required maybe ten minutes of my time total including making edits.
This thread has got me thinking that this sort of thing (a squib/obstruction causing a KB) must happen a lot in the military, what with expending the number of rounds through the thousands of full-auto and select fire weapons that they do every year. Does any of our ex/current military members on the board have any insight on this?
Why the delay from S&W if the ammo caused the failure?