.223 is strong stuff ... - Page 2

.223 is strong stuff ...

This is a discussion on .223 is strong stuff ... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Janq Though for HD within a residence there are other options than hunting game buckshot, which very much less tends to penetrate ...

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Thread: .223 is strong stuff ...

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Though for HD within a residence there are other options than hunting game buckshot, which very much less tends to penetrate exterior and even in cases interior walls.
    I wouldn't trust any shotgun load lighter than #4 buck for self defense.


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array thylordjj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    I wouldn't trust any shotgun load lighter than #4 buck for self defense.
    True , true, how ever at across the room distance, even bird shot will make a nasty mess of the BG. Will it kill him ?? well, that topic could be talked about forever... but a blast from a 12 gauge at close range WILL ruin his day....

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thylordjj View Post
    True , true, how ever at across the room distance, even bird shot will make a nasty mess of the BG. Will it kill him ?? well, that topic could be talked about forever... but a blast from a 12 gauge at close range WILL ruin his day....
    The object here is not to kill him, or to make a nasty mess of him, or to ruin his day. The goal is to stop him from killing me. I do not trust birdshot to do that.

  4. #19
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    As to frangible .223/5.56 that too will zip right along.
    TBOT did a test on that in specific some time ago; The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 2
    Once again, military ball and general soft-point ammo are poor examples to draw broad conclusions from. Barnes TSX bullets, Hornady TAP, Nosler HPBT bullets, and Sierra MatchKing are all superior to the M193 and to the Remington 55gr soft point in virtually every capacity but price, and at least two of those have earned a reputation for greatly reduced chances of overpenetration (through actual police use, not testing against walls).

    You claim that the instructors are being irresponsible by their recommendation. I would like you to support your claim by demonstrating that shotgun loads provide equal effectiveness with lower danger of overpenetration compared to common personal defense .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO loads.


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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    As to frangible .223/5.56 that too will zip right along.
    TBOT did a test on that in specific some time ago; The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 2
    Different types frangible vary by quite a bit. Some are basically very rapidly expanding hollowpoints, other are compressed powdered metal, others are pre-fragmented. It isn't really possible to generalize about all frangibles based on one particular design. Unfortunatley, TBoT doesn't actually say what brand and type of frangible he's testing, so we can't even really say anything about a particular design.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    I trust 3in turkey shoot followed by 2 3/4 #4 buck low recoil JMO H/D
    A Native Floridian = RARE


    IT'S OUR RIGHTS>THEY WANT TO WRONG
    H/D

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Warning: Here's a graphic pic of what a .223 can do at close range

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    I would imagine that any bullet flying in excess of 3Kfps would do massive trauma. It is like a metorite that is about 100 lbs hit the surface of earth at 16,000mph and it causes a crater about a football field wide.

    Ive seen wounds in coyotes from 17hmr's wowsers .. they are nasty.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Use Ballistic tips; They are probably the most explosive HP rounds I know of for the 5.56/.223 caliber; I have 4 clips of Hornady TAP and about 500 rounds of Ballistic tip reloads on hand for the day the SHTF.......

    But I am with QK on the Shotty; My Benelli M5 loaded up with 3" #4 Buck can cut a BG in half pretty darn fast.....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    I'm with BAC and BlackEagle on this one. Thanks for sharing nedrgr21. My first concern is the most effective and fastest way to stop an attack. Everything else comes secondary. My HD AR is loaded with Hornady 5.56mm 75gr TAP.

    Austin

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aus71383 View Post
    Everything else comes secondary. My HD AR is loaded with Hornady 5.56mm 75gr TAP.
    Same here!

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Warning: Here's a graphic pic of what a .223 can do at close range
    Absolutely brutal...
    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Once again, military ball and general soft-point ammo are poor examples to draw broad conclusions from. Barnes TSX bullets, Hornady TAP, Nosler HPBT bullets, and Sierra MatchKing are all superior to the M193 and to the Remington 55gr soft point in virtually every capacity but price, and at least two of those have earned a reputation for greatly reduced chances of overpenetration (through actual police use, not testing against walls).

    You claim that the instructors are being irresponsible by their recommendation. I would like you to support your claim by demonstrating that shotgun loads provide equal effectiveness with lower danger of overpenetration compared to common personal defense .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO loads.
    Read down to the mid way point of the page.
    The reason I posted it in reply to your comment toward frangible ammo was as related to their test of a 'frangible' round as well.
    It too penetrated...through four wall just like the rest, FMJ and soft point.

    As to shotgun this should be a no brainer...
    Rather than a single relatively high mass projectile being propelled at velocity as with a rifle. A shotgun fires multiple very low mass projectiles at moderate to low (reduced recoil rounds) relative velocity.
    Energy so as to penetrate any object be it human or solid matter is a function of mass and velocity.
    Which is why for example slug is a no go, not so much due to it's caliber but it's mass as in relation velocity to exert energy...as is related to penetration.

    The manner in which the projectile of a rifle travels from muzzle to point of impact over a distance as in relation to velocity is very much different by basic physics than that of shot from a shotgun.
    Shotgun shot deforms almost immediately from acceleration as within the barrel. At barrel exit by function of it's circular shape it already is high friction and with relatively low mass to assist it in the area of momentum it is functionally slowing down pretty much within the first few feet of barrel exit.
    Double and triple aught buck are good game stoppers because of their relatively high mass per projectile as in relation to constant velocity output between them and say #4 or even much lower mass birdshot.

    For HD use and considering the more normal engagement distances for an average US home, which would not be firing at distances from furthest wall to furthest wall, and running a more typical HD purposed shotgun that pretty much is going to be improved if not cylinder bore it would not be at all taking a risk to run #4 buckshot (highbrass also for no brainer reasons) toward a good overall use mix of stopping power at CQC ranges with a projectile of sufficient mass to penetrate at such distance, reduced shooter felt and absorbed recoil so as to ensure quick follow up shot capability, and in the event of a miss thanks to having lower mass than double or even triple aught the errant shot projectiles are real world much less apt to penetrate room walls and/or interior to exterior perimeter walls.

    Same very much cannot be said at all for .223/5.56 of any sort regardless of the projectile type and weight as fired from a rifle, carbine, or SBR at that. As in a typical construction US residence.
    For that matter nor can the same be said for most any round fired from a rifle and for very many common defensive handgun chamberings as well.

    A shotgun offers point ability. Operational simplicity. Very good natural point of aim. Does not require aiming devices to be 99% hit functional at CQC distances. Can be off-shoulder fired/fired incorrectly in hold by a stone novice and still result in good hit probability at CQC distances thanks to it's point n shoot design (not shot spread as is commonly misinterpreted).

    And most importantly of all as related to HD use shotgun shot is far more likely to dump most if not all of it's kinetic energy into the soft matter target of Deebo at real world HD engagement ranges.
    As opposed to higher to very high velocity (.223/5.56) rifle fired projectiles at same close HD distances regularly penetrating fully the soft target, with little functional regard toward bullet type/design/weight, and becoming a serious secondary issue as related to 'backstop'.
    As well with a miss of #4 impact against harder objects from gypsum board/plaster walls on up greatly absorbs and reduces kinetic energy at impact and/if penetration occurs beyond. Same cannot at all be said for .223/5.56 and this too is well known and reported both anecdotally as per this threads OP findings and by serious study too military and la enforcement, take your pick.

    People as civilians under woken by a bump in the night sound of Deebo in the hallway or living room noise do on many occasions miss their mark. The round or rounds fired that do not hit their mark, or even do but penetrate soft flesh, continue to be our own legal and moral responsibility.
    Real world people live amongst other real world persons and solid projectiles as fired from rifles and handguns too do on many occasions strike unintended off in the distance amongst the background otherwise uninvolved third party persons.

    To know and recognize this is a matter of firearm safety, personal responsibility, and moral responsibility as related to our social fabric.
    I don't want my neighbors errant round penetrating my kids window or the skin of my house into their room...no more than I want my own missed shot round(s) to do same.
    Mitigating this can be done and has been for generations quite handily by way of using a shotgun firing shot rather than a rifle firing solid projectiles, and to apply a little physics to the charge with selecting a lower mass projectile shell then double aught which is great for taking deer at distance or penetrating the thick hide of bear and other dangerous game also at a good amount of standoff distance.

    Personally I would consider #4 buck minimum as I would not at all bet my life on birdshot even at close down the hall distances, even as I may have opportunity for a follow up shot.
    Above that #1 to triple aught at max would be my choice ahead of double aught again for balance of mass against velocity. I also would not run a magnum shell nor would I run a tactical low recoil (low velocity charge) at less than #1 or triple aught as the math pretty much balances out to same there against #4 buck.
    Also any shell I select would be highbrass construction too for equally no brainer reasons but I figure I might as well state as much in the event it's wondered about as well.

    I hope this more fully answers your questions as to my thoughts and statements.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointnClick View Post
    Absolutely brutal...
    Agreed.

    And now the next thought should be...
    1) Where did this shooting occur, was it a HD?
    2) Clearly per the imagery alone the projectile exited which is to be expected and is very much normal as at HD/CQC distances. So where did the projectile continue on to and for what distance and through what other material if any before lost all energy and came to rest?
    3) Was the person shot stopped with this single shot or were follow up shots required, considering the hit to the femur is not a CNS, heart, nor lung shot which is most optimal for a one shot stop.

    For specific purpose of HD stoppage of the BG(s) actions as being an immediate threat is what is key and critical.
    If he or she happens to subsequent to that stoppage expire from the wound(s) then well that is unfortunate but was not the primary intent. Stopping the person as efficiently as possible is what is paramount...for civilian world HD.

    I also wonder if this person would be able to keep the leg or lose it.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array highoctane's Avatar
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    Janq, so your your saying your choice for HD shotgun round would be triple aught in the 2 3/4 variety?

    Thanks

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