.223 is strong stuff ...

This is a discussion on .223 is strong stuff ... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I gave my son in law one of my Black rifles this past weekend and he being a newbie got excited and turned it loose ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    I gave my son in law one of my Black rifles this past weekend and he being a newbie got excited and turned it loose on my 3/8 thick steel plates that I shoot with my pistols. It almost went thru leaving only about 1/16 of metal behind that made a bulge out the back side. The hole (not clean thru) is probably 3/8 in diameter. I will get some pics and post them. The rounds are Remington full metal jackets bought from Walmart.
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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    For HD use and considering the more normal engagement distances for an average US home, which would not be firing at distances from furthest wall to furthest wall, and running a more typical HD purposed shotgun that pretty much is going to be improved if not cylinder bore it would not be at all taking a risk to run #4 buckshot (highbrass also for no brainer reasons) toward a good overall use mix of stopping power at CQC ranges with a projectile of sufficient mass to penetrate at such distance, reduced shooter felt and absorbed recoil so as to ensure quick follow up shot capability, and in the event of a miss thanks to having lower mass than double or even triple aught the errant shot projectiles are real world much less apt to penetrate room walls and/or interior to exterior perimeter walls.

    Same very much cannot be said at all for .223/5.56 of any sort regardless of the projectile type and weight as fired from a rifle, carbine, or SBR at that. As in a typical construction US residence.
    A good frangible rifle round will have a lower probability of overpenetrating a human target, and as low or lower probability of exiting a structure than buckshot.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    I gave my son in law one of my Black rifles this past weekend and he being a newbie got excited and turned it loose on my 3/8 thick steel plates that I shoot with my pistols. It almost went thru leaving only about 1/16 of metal behind that made a bulge out the back side. The hole (not clean thru) is probably 3/8 in diameter. I will get some pics and post them. The rounds are Remington full metal jackets bought from Walmart.
    I did that once when I was around 10. My dad had set up 1" thick iron plates designed for .44mag I believe. Later on he handed me the AR and never mentioned anything about the plates being only for pistols...we got a nice clean hole through the middle of a plate
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  5. #34
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Read down to the mid way point of the page.
    The reason I posted it in reply to your comment toward frangible ammo was as related to their test of a 'frangible' round as well.
    It too penetrated...through four wall just like the rest, FMJ and soft point.
    I made no mention frangible ammunition. Frangible ammunition is designed to break up when striking steel targets, and is not appropriate for self-defense use. Proper defensive rounds are not frangible rounds, even if they exhibit predictable destruction or expansion upon striking a target. This is more of a terminology thing; most of what's being called 'frangible' isn't really. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

    You keep mentioning 'of any bullet/projectile design', and yet the only references you have are to military ball ammo; you have yet to address dedicated personal defense ammunition in any way. Do you wonder why PDs don't often use military ball ammo in patrol rifles, and why ballisticians don't recommend such ammo? Do you wonder why certain Federal and Hornady rounds are more popular among law enforcement?

    Janq, you have still not demonstrated that shotgun loads provide equal effectiveness with lower danger of overpenetration compared to common personal defense .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO loads. You've provided theory, which can be argued against by mention of sectional density of the solid shot pellets and their rate of deformation compared to the designed-deformation of .223 and 5.56 bullets. I can even argue that all of the factors of weapon use you described apply to rifles as much as they do shotguns. If we did not have the variety of ammunition offerings and array of real world use to look at, we would have to hash out theoretical argument. But because of the variety of ammunition out there, and the number of real world uses of different types of ammo, we can actually start looking at numbers and how things work 'in the real world'. If this is a no brainer, then there should be some evidence to support it, no? Let's draw real world examples and data for these theories.


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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    A good frangible rifle round will have a lower probability of overpenetrating a human target, and as low or lower probability of exiting a structure than buckshot.
    Agreed.

    But the start of my own comments was toward a "miss", as in not hitting any human, and penetration of ones residences skin interior to exterior as in walls.

    Again people fire and miss when under stress. It's pretty common.

    - Janq
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  7. #36
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    Wow, those pics of the guy's leg are gruesome. Anyone who says that the 5.56 round doesn't have enough power needs to look at that!
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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  8. #37
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    I had no idea this would turn into a debate of what is right and wrong as in using .223 ammo as a defense platform for the house.

    I just wanted to share that it is really fast flying and really powerful haha.. But keep those opinions flowing as I am sure it is really educating some curious people about the subject.

    I live in a rural setting so I can get away with using a carbine for self defense of the home. The bullet would simply pass through my house and into the forest around me and probably kill some poison ivy vine or worse yet a tree..... omg ....

    I would however rather miss once and still have 29 rounds with which to get it right than have only 7 remaining in my single stack .45. Plus if the intruder is wearing any form of kevlar we know the 45 is useless as far as lethality to diffuse the hostility. The carbine will punch a hole through the kevlar, body, back of kevlar, and probably take out the poison ivy patch on the other side of the wall.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    BAC,

    Agreed regarding frangible.
    I personally would not use as much.
    I'd use Hornady TAP or Corbon DPX...under specific conditions.

    But (!) I did not bring that into the discussion...Blackeagle did so talk to him about frangible as used for HD.

    Yes I mistook you for him in my reply as clearly I'd meant him as in relation to my reply to this; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...882-post9.html
    But it was after 2A EST and I was responding to both of you dually in two different posts to which both your handles begin with 'B'.
    It's not hard to see what happened there.

    As to references I added that item only once and it was a quote as in direct correlation to the OPs post about firing a round through wood and the result he experienced.
    I don't have to reference anything further on that, I was not to start arguing for as much never mind detail projectile design in detail for a round I'm not in support of anyway.

    As to PD use, what does that matter?
    PD's are not civilians and civilians are not POLICE.
    Police have significant differences in all manner of tactics. Civilian HD tactics and methods are not 1:1 same. Further police have different liability protections as related to their actions than do civilians. These two alone have significant affect on police tactics and armament choices, amongst others.
    If you know of police then you know this too, or should, but for some odd reason are ignoring as much wholly as I've already stated a multiple of times here so as to support your own view of using .223/5.56 for _civilian_ HD.

    Now if you yourself do not actually know that shotgun loads provide equal effectiveness with lower danger of overpenetration compared to common personal defense .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO loads, then well that is shocking and surprising. To know as much as you imply about .223/5.56 but to not understand real world results of those rounds upon flesh and meat is odd. It's not my job nor motivation to educate you on that further. If you have not done so by now and yet can speak to what you have thus far then I find that odd and well it is what it is. Same goes for shotgun loads. Shotguns and their loads have been in play for far longer than .223/5.56 as used toward medium and large game, as applicable to the shells I'd related toward HD use, and their stopping power in a functional way is well known there and same is well known and studied as used against humans.
    Again it's not my job to educate you to that end either if for some odd reason you have not choosen to do so for yourself.

    And with regard to "overpenetration" once again the core of my comments were related not to hitting a target, but to MISSING.
    I'd stated as much to start as per the OPs subject of MISSING and striking not soft objects such as a stud.
    You can argue all you want with yourself about over penetration as related to HITTING and what rounds at what weights and whatever other factor you would like to involve as related to 'over penetration'.
    I'm not interested nor was I speaking to that.

    I have been all along from the start focuses specifically on what happens to projectiles as fired/shot upon a MISS as in relation to background structure of the residence.

    I will though leave you with these as you desire something to read.
    The answers to many of your questions as studied in relation to shotguns can be found here, as also supportive to my assertions and "theory":

    * The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth
    The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2

    * John Lott's Website: "Army Lawyer on use of shotguns in combat"
    Note: The source link as noted in the Lott article is no longer functional.
    The file as pointed too though can be found directly at; http://web.archive.org/web/20061206134853/http://jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETINTERNET/HOMEPAGES/AC/ARMYLAWYER.NSF/c82df279f9445da185256e5b005244ee/6ae1de28fab6310685256e5b0054ec6b/$FILE/Article+2.pdf

    * Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun
    Shotgun

    Additionally an item that does support .223 use although specifically with extra-light projectiles so as to work well at HD ranges while also being more apt to lose energy or self destruct upon harder object impact as opposed to penetrate as the OPs projectile did.
    * Long guns still popular home-defense option - Massad Ayoob
    Long guns still popular home-defense option - Lethal Force | Shooting Industry | Find Articles at BNET

    As well from the same author a reflection on use of a shotgun for HD to which interestingly he comes to the same conclusion and suggestion as I do in relation to #4 albeit from the opposite side of the coin as in relation to actual hit rather than miss.
    Legends And Myths Of The Home Defense Shotgun - Massad Ayoob
    Legends And Myths Of The Home Defense Shotgun - Brief Article | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

    Note: Ayoob goes on to mention 20GA as another appropriate choice which I also feel is a good choice albeit even more a heretical position than being against use of .223/5.56 for HD (!).
    BTW I had not seen or read any of the above before today with exception of the TBOT story.

    Additionally as in video the following is a demonstration of penetration as related to a MISS that was recently featured on 'The Best Defense'.
    * Wall Penetration
    THE BEST DEFENSE - on the Outdoor Channel
    Note: At the end the test both 00 and birdshot (!). I am not and have not suggested birdshot but again note the results. The difference as shown is due to basic physics in relation to mass of the projectile as toward penetration upon a MISS.

    I've got work to do that pays money so this will be my last post for now/today on the subject.
    This reply alone has sucked up an inordinate amount of my time far more than my normal time to draft and hit submit.

    If you don't or can't agree then well that's fine and your right. Nobody is forcing you to change nor requiring it.
    For those who happen to do agree then well hey that's fine too.
    No skin off my nose either way.
    I'm only asking to consider that there is a world in 360 degrees beyond that of the target as within your residence in a HD scenario that has just as much right to be at peace and live as you do in regard to an attempted defense of self.

    What I am though happy about is that you are not my neighbor.
    The last thing I would want to occur is to have a .223/5.56 round come zipping into my home as fired from within your own as result of a MISS, rather than hit. Even as my neighbors are away from me at the measure of yards.
    An oddly reassuring and positive thought as into relation to being surrounded by antis and otherwise gun fearful folk.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed on all points Tango.

    And I too had no idea my original response would result in what has occurred.
    I apologize for the resulting thread jack. :|

    Very much agreed though that .223/5.56 is fast flying and really powerful.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    It's not my job nor motivation to educate you on that further.
    In an earlier post you called instructors who recommend .223 rifles for home defense "irresponsible". If you're going to throw around accusations like that, I think you have an obligation to back them up with evidence.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    In an earlier post you called instructors who recommend .223 rifles for home defense "irresponsible". If you're going to throw around accusations like that, I think you have an obligation to back them up with evidence.
    Rifle as HD use and building penetration by projectiles evidence:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-treating.html

    The Journal Times Online > Local News > Man shoots up apartment with assault rifle

    10-year-old boy shot in Oakland while taking piano lessons - 1/11/08 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com and with an update Paralyzed Oakland boy forgives robber who shot him; Adams sentenced to 70 years - Inside Bay Area

    Stray bullet kills sleeping Newark teen - NJ.com

    Questions Surround Newark Teen's Stray Bullet Death - Gothamist: New York City News, Food, Arts & Events

    Witness testifies he saw defendant Markeith Williams shoot a rifle just before 2-year-old George Amerson was killed in a nearby Birmingham apartment - al.com

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...679D946897D6CF

    TheFiringLine Forums - View Single Post - I accidently shot myself last night.


    And even more testing...
    * .223 Wallboard test - New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice
    http://www.nj.gov/oag/dcj/njpdresour...board_test.pdf

    * Wall penetration - 5.56mm
    Wall penetration - 5.56mm - THR and specifically THR - View Single Post - Wall penetration - 5.56mm


    And as related to why police in specific prefer and desire rifles to shotguns, which is also a non-brainer, see the following;
    * Need for law enforcement officers to have .223 caliber patrol rifles - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
    Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman Blog Archive Need for law enforcement officers to have .223 caliber patrol rifles

    For folk here who are police and on the job serving warrants, kicking in doors, and member of entry squads yes the .223/5.56 is FTW. Though in such cases for safety neighbors are often removed from their homes or advised to stay inside for concern of penetration of the contacts residence, not over penetration of rounds as fired into a potential threat.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Yes I mistook you for him in my reply as clearly I'd meant him as in relation to my reply to this; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...882-post9.html
    But it was after 2A EST and I was responding to both of you dually in two different posts to which both your handles begin with 'B'.
    It's not hard to see what happened there.
    I assumed as much, but felt like clarifying my own views regarding frangible ammunition and took the opportunity to do so. 'S all good.


    As to PD use, what does that matter?
    PD's are not civilians and civilians are not POLICE.
    Police have significant differences in all manner of tactics. Civilian HD tactics and methods are not 1:1 same. Further police have different liability protections as related to their actions than do civilians. These two alone have significant affect on police tactics and armament choices, amongst others.
    I agree completely that civilians aren't police, and vice versa, but what makes the point worth mentioning is that both operate in the same environment, both might have to employ a long gun in close quarters, and both are equally responsible for misses. I find it very difficult to believe that a police officer who discharges a rifle indoors and kills a bystander will face any more protection over a home owner doing the same in the face of a violent home invasion. I maintain that what police departments have found in their studies, in studies they use, and in their own experiences to be valid for the discussion.

    I am aware of the wounding mechanisms of projectiles on people, meaning I know the theories behind them. I understand that the differences in the dynamics of a shotshell and a rifle cartridge are almost night and day, and that both have significantly different effects on a target that they strike. However, I would also point out that a bullet designed to break upon entering or striking particular media is also significantly different than a bullet that cannot bear the same design; the surface of a rifle bullet that strikes something is predictable, whereas the same cannot be said about a shot pellet. Shot pellets can be made softer or harder, for less or more penetration respectively, and that's about it.

    To be clear, I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of shotgun loads against people. What I am arguing is that shotgun loads suitable for downing a person are also most likely to pass through many interior walls, as well as perhaps exterior walls. Shot pellets maintain their structure far better, even if deformed slightly after initially leaving the barrel, than rifle bullets. If a shot pellet penetrates a wall, it'll probably penetrate several; higher sectional density. If a small-caliber, higher velocity round strikes and penetrates a wall and is not an FMJ, it's more likely to be disrupted and deformed/destroyed than a spherical shot pellet would be.

    You are correct in that this is more a discussion about rounds vs wall material than rounds vs people, but we cannot ignore the people part of the equation. I won't load anything in any home defense weapon that cannot defeat a home invader, even if I can be guaranteed that they would never go through a wall. Anything suitable for bearing against people is going to go through common interior wall materials; probably a couple walls, if not stopped by metal brackets, studs, and the like. Should the argument not emphasize, then, what rounds that are suitable for downing people penetrate least against wall materials? How does this argument not favor the projectile with less sectional density and a greater tendency to deform against surfaces harder than human skin?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Box O' Truth
    ...But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

    Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.
    Although the methods of the "Box O' Truth" tests are dubious (not spacing the drywall in more realistic distances and framing them to maintain rigidity), they still come to the same conclusion as I described above. The tendency of shot pellets to not deform easily is also documented in Fr. Frog's page.

    The news clips are hardly worth mentioning, even as anecdotal evidence; we have no idea what kind of ammunition was being used, and I'm willing to bet that the type of ammo used is pretty important to everyone intending to use a rifle or shotgun in self-defense. I've seen evidence in support of defense-worthy .223 and 5.56 rounds penetrating less wall material than tac shotshell loads, and I've yet to see evidence of the reverse occurring. The New Jersey DCJ test and the THR post on wall penetration confirm what I've stated about the tendency of good .223 and 5.56 loads to be more likely to break up early and pose less a threat to, say, your neighbors. In light of this, I still I think it's appropriate to end with a little wisdom from Massad Ayoob:

    Anything that will go deep enough into a man to stop him will go through sheetrock and lath walls. It's better to plan things out so that when you confront the intruder, he'll have something solid behind him. This means you don't go looking for him, you ensconce with the family in the safe room, get the police on the phone, and make the intruder come looking for you.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Rifle as HD use and building penetration by projectiles evidence:
    And the evidence that buckshot wouldn't have penetrated in any of these cases is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    And even more testing...
    * .223 Wallboard test - New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice
    http://www.nj.gov/oag/dcj/njpdresour...board_test.pdf
    This backs up exactly what I've been saything this whole time. These tests show the Hornady TAP breaks up as it passes through the layers of wallboard.

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Chevyguy85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TucAzRider View Post
    Yep... I tried out a dead bolt lock with my 9mm,.. Wouldn't penetrate,. Close range (7-8 yards).. A friend tried his 45APC (I knew that wouldn't do it) .... BUT - - - - -> the AR, ya.. It didn't think twice at about 150 yards,.. Blasted two holes clean thru it and the force on the second hit pushed it out the back,...
    mythbusters did that. they tried a 9 or a 45 can't remember which, a .357 mag, and a m1 and only the m1 broke the lock and the dead bolts they tried

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    And the evidence that buckshot wouldn't have penetrated in any of these cases is?

    This backs up exactly what I've been saything this whole time. These tests show the Hornady TAP breaks up as it passes through the layers of wallboard.
    Very much unlikely as #4 buckshot in specific for the reasons I detailed last night.

    As to the NJ test their findings are exactly what _I've been saying_ all along, too.
    As to TAP in specific when did you make any reference to that is specific?

    Never mind that as it doesn't matter.

    Like I said before I do not agree with you and you do not agree with me. Fact.
    Nothing further needs to be said that hasn't already been.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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