.223 is strong stuff ... - Page 4

.223 is strong stuff ...

This is a discussion on .223 is strong stuff ... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Janq Originally Posted by Blackeagle And the evidence that buckshot wouldn't have penetrated in any of these cases is? Very much unlikely ...

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Thread: .223 is strong stuff ...

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    And the evidence that buckshot wouldn't have penetrated in any of these cases is?
    Very much unlikely as #4 buckshot in specific for the reasons I detailed last night.
    Do you have any actual evidence of this? The Box O' Truth link you posted earlier showed #4 buck blowing through 6 sheets of drywall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    As to TAP in specific when did you make any reference to that is specific?
    First page of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    That's why I think a rifle loaded with good frangibles like the Hornady TAP or VMAX, or some of the Barnes frangibles Cor-Bon is loading are an excellent choice for home defense.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post

    I also wonder if this person would be able to keep the leg or lose it.

    I would wager that he was able to keep it, but I doubt it will ever be "good as new" again...

    I've been shooting other people's guns since I was a teenager, but only recently started acquiring my own weapons. When I bought my first handgun, I thought, "Well, if you are gonna have a gun, let's not screw around..." I'm a big boy and I wanted something with some thump... I considered a .357 as I had seen it's power first-hand, but in the end, I selected .45 caliber...

    And when I bought my first rifle, I again went with the big bullet and chose an AK in 7.62... I have since acquired an AR, but these images have made me realize that 556 is a highly effective round. I'd really like to see a similar wound from a 762X39... anybody got any?

    Using an AK for home defense might get some of my neighbors killed... giant bullets flying thru drywall and wooden studs...

    I'm reminded of Joe Piscopo in Johnny Dangerously, pulling out a revolver with a foot-long barrel and saying, "This is an .88 Magnum... this thing shoots through schools..."

    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointnClick View Post
    Using an AK for home defense might get some of my neighbors killed... giant bullets flying thru drywall and wooden studs...
    Interestingly, we're starting to see some of these same frangible and rapidly expanding bullet designs in 7.62x39mm. Hornady has announced it will be loading their V-MAX bullets in 7.62x39mm, and Cor-Bon is loading the Barnes MPG frangible in the caliber. That said, these rounds do weigh in at about twice with their .223 equivalents do, so I'd probably wait for someone to do some testing before going with a 7.62x39mm rifle for home defense.

    It is nice to see some domestic ammo manufacturers finally paying attention to the ComBloc calibers through.

  4. #49
    Ex Member Array thylordjj's Avatar
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    In my mind, (for what it’s worth) touching off ANY hyper velocity rifle in one’s home is BEGGING for legal and negligent punishment. I know my .223 or 7.62x39 would make short work of the BG. However as a “responsible gun owner” playing commando in a populated area is stupidity. I will stick with much less “potent” rounds for in the house. Yes my .45 will make it through a wall, so will the 12 gauge. But odds are better they will not make it into the next house. I think a jury would chew you up if even one of those rounds made it next door. Don’t open yourself to legal trouble. I can hear the prosecuting attorney telling the jury, He was patrolling his house with a black assault rifle looking to inflict maximum carnage to his helpless victim. Packing 30 rounds, of super sonic, specialized killing ammo. I’m not here to argue… you all shoot what you want, but if one of those rounds ends up in some ones home or some ones kids, ask yourself….. ARE you going to feel REAL good about your choice of gun ????? A stray bullet is every bit your responsibility just like a well aimed one….Why take the risk...In fact a hunter here not long ago missed a deer . The bullet traveled more than a mile from his location and killed a small child. Guess how the jury ruled the shooting?

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thylordjj View Post
    Yes my .45 will make it through a wall, so will the 12 gauge. But odds are better they will not make it into the next house.
    If your house and the one next door are both wood framed, a pistol bullet is quite likely to make it into the next house. Pistol rounds will outpenetrate both buckshot and frangible rifle ammunition by a considerable margin.

    Janq and I have our disagreements about rifle versus shotgun here, and people can draw what conclusions they will from our debate. However, if you take anything away from this thread, please realize that wood frame construction does NOT make a safe backstop for pistol bullets!

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed very much so on all points, Be. ^^

    If anything I/we hope folks will walk away from this thread and know that there is no real backstop amongst your residential home, unless of course you are Batman and live in an earthen type cave.

    What you in the end select for yourself is between you, possibly Deebo, and hopefully not your neighbor.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    If anything I/we hope folks will walk away from this thread and know that there is no real backstop amongst your residential home, unless of course you are Batman and live in an earthen type cave.

    What you in the end select for yourself is between you, possibly Deebo, and hopefully not your neighbor.
    Agreed. No choice of caliber or round can substitute for knowing your target and what is beyond it.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    BlackEagle sez...

    If your house and the one next door are both wood framed, a pistol bullet is quite likely to make it into the next house. Pistol rounds will outpenetrate both buckshot and frangible rifle ammunition by a considerable margin.

    Janq and I have our disagreements about rifle versus shotgun here, and people can draw what conclusions they will from our debate. However, if you take anything away from this thread, please realize that wood frame construction does NOT make a safe backstop for pistol bullets!
    Dead right... A quick search on YouTube will turn up video of 7.62 chomping up cinderblocks, and I have seen what .45 does to 3/4 inch plywood at 50-60 yards... wood frame construction is collateral damage looking for a victim.

    The one thing missing from my collection is a shotgun...
    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    Here are a couple decent articles on .223 penetration:

    "Penetration tests conducted by department range staff and several other highly respected experts have resulted in the following conclusions (see accompanying chart for numbers):

    "The first thing you notice is the startling over-penetration of the typical jacketed hollowpoint pistol bullet once its nose is packed with an inert substance. The second thing you notice is that the over-penetration effect of .223 rifle ammo may have been highly over-rated.

    Selecting Home Defense Ammunition | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET


    Here's another:

    Results

    Caliber testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
    .223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
    .223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
    .40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
    .40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
    .40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
    .40S&W wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
    12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
    * these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
    CCI Gold Dot.

    Summary
    The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the over penetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.

    The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

    When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

    Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.

    Olympic Arms, Inc. - Real World .223 testing d=26

    Chuck
    homo homini lupus est

  10. #55
    Member Array llongshot's Avatar
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    I'm with jang. And then some. Find a road killed deer and put a 2 /34" one ounce load of #8 shot into it at typical HD distance for your home. That means measuring and duplicating that measurement. Look past that measurement to see who sleeps/resides down range. Attempt to see who's in danger there and by what round. If you aren't interested in the deer thing go to the local slaughter house and pick up a hog's head. Take the cheapest shotgun round you can buy [that will usually be the one that spreads the most in a short distance] and put that round into that hog's head [prefferably between the eyes]. Make your own decision. I've done all the above and have made up my mind based on what I saw. Just so it's not an issue I own an XM15, AK47, Benelli 12, Springfield Armory .45, and Witness Hunter 10MM. I've done this with each and every one plus shooting gallon jugs of water just to see how many get blown up and how badly.

  11. #56
    Member Array Delucas's Avatar
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    This is most likely a hijack but, how do you guys, that use ARs, AKs and other black rifles for HD, sight in at such close ranges?
    I know there probably are only one or two spots in my house that reach 25 yds.

    Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'd really don't have enough experience to know.
    Grassroots SC, SC CWP, NH NR-PRL

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delucas View Post
    This is most likely a hijack but, how do you guys, that use ARs, AKs and other black rifles for HD, sight in at such close ranges?
    I know there probably are only one or two spots in my house that reach 25 yds.
    I sight them in as usual (dead on at about 40 yards for an AK, around 25 for an AK). At closer distances you have to hold over a bit because the sights on both rifles are quite a ways above the bore.

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Warning: Here's a graphic pic of what a .223 can do at close range
    First of all... What language are the people in that link speaking in?

    Second - I sight my AR using a 50yd/200m (POA = POI at both of those distances) zero which gives me 2" or less hold over at all distances from 0-250m... at HD range it's the full 2" of hold over...
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

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  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delucas View Post
    This is most likely a hijack but, how do you guys, that use ARs, AKs and other black rifles for HD, sight in at such close ranges?
    I know there probably are only one or two spots in my house that reach 25 yds.

    Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'd really don't have enough experience to know.

    Laser!!

    Dont even need to look at the sight just aim from the hip and you cant go wrong with the green beam. I've got one coming. But I did alot of research on tactical lasers and the wavelength and how the photons bounce back at your eyes and cause damage and so forth.

    Gotta be careful with them beams but cant go wrong 10 feet away from someone.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #60
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinDooley View Post
    First of all... What language are the people in that link speaking in?
    Says "Philippine Defense Forum" at the top. More than likely that means they were using old school M16s with M193. Looks like it was fairly close range, too, with a cop using the rifle on a drunk. Or discharged the rifle while drunk. I have no idea how to interpret some of the conversation, now that I've reread it.


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