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.223 is strong stuff ...

8K views 60 replies 22 participants last post by  KevinDooley 
#1 ·
Yeah I shot a wolf .223 rd in my Colt 6920 yesterday.

Guess what? It put a clean hole through a treated 12 x 12 wood pylon yesterday. Fresh brand new lumber at that.

I could see light through both holes. 12 inches of solid pressure treated lumber.... wow

I then shot a 5.56 same thing. So both are pretty darn powerful.

I was 10 feet away when I shot it. So I am sure that the velocity was at maximum force at the distance I was at.
 
#2 ·
TS,

Your discovery is a really good reason why for HD an AR even as a carbine is FTL as related to .223/5.56.

I mention this only because your thread is posted in the 'Defensive Rifles & Shotgun' area. And that in the US all manner of residences are commonly constructed of wood and wood stud framing.

Shotgun firing shot is safest overall considering that a residence basically has no 'backstop'.

- Janq

"Wood and Cinder Blocks. Wooden frame buildings and single cinder block walls offer little protection from 5.56mm rounds. When clearing such structures, soldiers must ensure friendly casualties do not result from rounds passing through walls, floors, or ceilings."
Source - 5.56mm (5.56 x 45 mm) Ammunition
 
#3 ·
Shotgun firing shot is safest overall considering that a residence basically has no 'backstop'.
Wood frame construction isn't a safe backstop for any reasonable self-defense load in a shotgun either.
 
#4 ·
Yep... I tried out a dead bolt lock with my 9mm,.. Wouldn't penetrate,. Close range (7-8 yards).. A friend tried his 45APC (I knew that wouldn't do it) .... BUT - - - - -> the AR, ya.. It didn't think twice at about 150 yards,.. Blasted two holes clean thru it and the force on the second hit pushed it out the back,...
 
#5 ·
Could you give a little more information about the ammo? I somehow suspect it's FMJ, which I don't think anybody anywhere advocates for .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO rounds for personal defense use. The quoted portion of Janq's reference is speaking directly to the use of military FMJ rounds.


-B
 
#8 ·
Actually it does matter quite a bit. Have you layered the material you were shooting at to accurately represent an interior wall? What barrel length is your rifle, and what velocities were you getting out of your rifle/ammo combo? Did you try other ammunition, like the more common personal defense rounds, or at the very least equivalent rounds with different bullets (offerings from Barnes, Sierra, etc.)? Further, did you compare results to that of common shotgun loads?

There's a fair amount of literature showing that .223 and 5.56 NATO are less likely to overpenetrate wall material than common handgun and shotgun loads, and a lot of PDs with entry teams are switching from the 9mm and .45 ACP sub guns to short-barreled ARs. I'm generally a skeptic, but here I'm seeing more evidence leaning one way versus the other.


-B
 
#10 ·
You are right. Many agencies are switching from pistol caliber sub guns to SBRs in 5.56. However, NATO ball or similar ammo is generally used for training only. To reduce the danger of over penetration, soft point or ballistic tip ammo is used. These are not frangible rounds! They are designed to penetrate and will come out the other side of the target. But as they transit the target, the break up rather than pulverize like a frangible round does. The pieces that do leave the target and travel downrange only weigh a few grains and carry much less energy with them. The ones that I have used are the Hornady TAP round and the Federal TRU round. Both have performed very well. They (IMHO) should be considered as the best choice for all but rural home defense ammo for the 5.56 weapons.
 
#12 ·
I know this is a "Defensive forum" but since this rifle is to be used by many for SD it is nice to know what the ammo can do in plain english, no numbers, discussion. Just simple paint a picture and say wow that is strong conversation.

Here is another scenario that I put he rifle through:

1.5 liter drinking water bottle. I think Dasani (coke brand).

Put it on top of a pole 4 feet off the ground with the base on the pole and the white screw top screwed on all the way.

Bottle was completely EMPTY!! This is the important part.

A slight breeze might have sent the bottle flying as it was simply sitting there on the pole not attached.

I walked back 65 or so yards, aimed, squeezed trig, bang@!!!! Bottle didn't move??? What did I miss?

So I walked up to the bottle to check it out and notice a tiny little .22 caliber sized hole in the plastic screw top clean through both sides. The bottle didnt even move but the bullet ripped through the top like a laser would have.

WOW that is a fast moving high power round no matter what anyone here sais'. Did I say the water bottle was empty and a breeze could have sent it flying.

I've shot tons and tons and tons of these rounds in the military but we never penetrate tested it with common house hold items.

My next test will be penetration on an old cast iron skillet I have that is ruined. It is about .5 inches thick. I will snipe this pan from about 50 yards behind a sand pile in case it wants to come back at me. Ill post picks if I get around to it.
 
#15 ·
Yeah my .30-06 is a beast! As I posted earlier I think my next purchase is a 300 weatherby or win mag depending on my budget and so forth.
 
#27 ·
Absolutely brutal...
 
#23 ·
I would imagine that any bullet flying in excess of 3Kfps would do massive trauma. It is like a metorite that is about 100 lbs hit the surface of earth at 16,000mph and it causes a crater about a football field wide.

Ive seen wounds in coyotes from 17hmr's wowsers .. they are nasty.
 
#24 ·
Use Ballistic tips; They are probably the most explosive HP rounds I know of for the 5.56/.223 caliber; I have 4 clips of Hornady TAP and about 500 rounds of Ballistic tip reloads on hand for the day the SHTF.......

But I am with QK on the Shotty; My Benelli M5 loaded up with 3" #4 Buck can cut a BG in half pretty darn fast.....
 
#31 ·
I gave my son in law one of my Black rifles this past weekend and he being a newbie got excited and turned it loose on my 3/8 thick steel plates that I shoot with my pistols. It almost went thru leaving only about 1/16 of metal behind that made a bulge out the back side. The hole (not clean thru) is probably 3/8 in diameter. I will get some pics and post them. The rounds are Remington full metal jackets bought from Walmart.
 
#33 ·
I did that once when I was around 10. My dad had set up 1" thick iron plates designed for .44mag I believe. Later on he handed me the AR and never mentioned anything about the plates being only for pistols...we got a nice clean hole through the middle of a plate :smile:
 
#37 ·
I had no idea this would turn into a debate of what is right and wrong as in using .223 ammo as a defense platform for the house.

I just wanted to share that it is really fast flying and really powerful haha.. But keep those opinions flowing as I am sure it is really educating some curious people about the subject.

I live in a rural setting so I can get away with using a carbine for self defense of the home. The bullet would simply pass through my house and into the forest around me and probably kill some poison ivy vine or worse yet a tree..... omg ....

I would however rather miss once and still have 29 rounds with which to get it right than have only 7 remaining in my single stack .45. Plus if the intruder is wearing any form of kevlar we know the 45 is useless as far as lethality to diffuse the hostility. The carbine will punch a hole through the kevlar, body, back of kevlar, and probably take out the poison ivy patch on the other side of the wall.
 
#38 ·
BAC,

Agreed regarding frangible.
I personally would not use as much.
I'd use Hornady TAP or Corbon DPX...under specific conditions.

But (!) I did not bring that into the discussion...Blackeagle did so talk to him about frangible as used for HD.

Yes I mistook you for him in my reply as clearly I'd meant him as in relation to my reply to this; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/1212882-post9.html
But it was after 2A EST and I was responding to both of you dually in two different posts to which both your handles begin with 'B'.
It's not hard to see what happened there.

As to references I added that item only once and it was a quote as in direct correlation to the OPs post about firing a round through wood and the result he experienced.
I don't have to reference anything further on that, I was not to start arguing for as much never mind detail projectile design in detail for a round I'm not in support of anyway.

As to PD use, what does that matter?
PD's are not civilians and civilians are not POLICE.
Police have significant differences in all manner of tactics. Civilian HD tactics and methods are not 1:1 same. Further police have different liability protections as related to their actions than do civilians. These two alone have significant affect on police tactics and armament choices, amongst others.
If you know of police then you know this too, or should, but for some odd reason are ignoring as much wholly as I've already stated a multiple of times here so as to support your own view of using .223/5.56 for _civilian_ HD.

Now if you yourself do not actually know that shotgun loads provide equal effectiveness with lower danger of overpenetration compared to common personal defense .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO loads, then well that is shocking and surprising. To know as much as you imply about .223/5.56 but to not understand real world results of those rounds upon flesh and meat is odd. It's not my job nor motivation to educate you on that further. If you have not done so by now and yet can speak to what you have thus far then I find that odd and well it is what it is. Same goes for shotgun loads. Shotguns and their loads have been in play for far longer than .223/5.56 as used toward medium and large game, as applicable to the shells I'd related toward HD use, and their stopping power in a functional way is well known there and same is well known and studied as used against humans.
Again it's not my job to educate you to that end either if for some odd reason you have not choosen to do so for yourself.

And with regard to "overpenetration" once again the core of my comments were related not to hitting a target, but to MISSING.
I'd stated as much to start as per the OPs subject of MISSING and striking not soft objects such as a stud.
You can argue all you want with yourself about over penetration as related to HITTING and what rounds at what weights and whatever other factor you would like to involve as related to 'over penetration'.
I'm not interested nor was I speaking to that.

I have been all along from the start focuses specifically on what happens to projectiles as fired/shot upon a MISS as in relation to background structure of the residence.

I will though leave you with these as you desire something to read.
The answers to many of your questions as studied in relation to shotguns can be found here, as also supportive to my assertions and "theory":

* The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2

* John Lott's Website: "Army Lawyer on use of shotguns in combat"
Note: The source link as noted in the Lott article is no longer functional.
The file as pointed too though can be found directly at; http://web.archive.org/web/20061206134853/http://jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETINTERNET/HOMEPAGES/AC/ARMYLAWYER.NSF/c82df279f9445da185256e5b005244ee/6ae1de28fab6310685256e5b0054ec6b/$FILE/Article+2.pdf

* Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun
Shotgun

Additionally an item that does support .223 use although specifically with extra-light projectiles so as to work well at HD ranges while also being more apt to lose energy or self destruct upon harder object impact as opposed to penetrate as the OPs projectile did.
* Long guns still popular home-defense option - Massad Ayoob
Long guns still popular home-defense option - Lethal Force | Shooting Industry | Find Articles at BNET

As well from the same author a reflection on use of a shotgun for HD to which interestingly he comes to the same conclusion and suggestion as I do in relation to #4 albeit from the opposite side of the coin as in relation to actual hit rather than miss.
Legends And Myths Of The Home Defense Shotgun - Massad Ayoob
Legends And Myths Of The Home Defense Shotgun - Brief Article | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

Note: Ayoob goes on to mention 20GA as another appropriate choice which I also feel is a good choice albeit even more a heretical position than being against use of .223/5.56 for HD (!).
BTW I had not seen or read any of the above before today with exception of the TBOT story.

Additionally as in video the following is a demonstration of penetration as related to a MISS that was recently featured on 'The Best Defense'.
* Wall Penetration
THE BEST DEFENSE - on the Outdoor Channel
Note: At the end the test both 00 and birdshot (!). I am not and have not suggested birdshot but again note the results. The difference as shown is due to basic physics in relation to mass of the projectile as toward penetration upon a MISS.

I've got work to do that pays money so this will be my last post for now/today on the subject.
This reply alone has sucked up an inordinate amount of my time far more than my normal time to draft and hit submit.

If you don't or can't agree then well that's fine and your right. Nobody is forcing you to change nor requiring it.
For those who happen to do agree then well hey that's fine too.
No skin off my nose either way.
I'm only asking to consider that there is a world in 360 degrees beyond that of the target as within your residence in a HD scenario that has just as much right to be at peace and live as you do in regard to an attempted defense of self.

What I am though happy about is that you are not my neighbor.
The last thing I would want to occur is to have a .223/5.56 round come zipping into my home as fired from within your own as result of a MISS, rather than hit. Even as my neighbors are away from me at the measure of yards.
An oddly reassuring and positive thought as into relation to being surrounded by antis and otherwise gun fearful folk.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

- Janq
 
#40 ·
It's not my job nor motivation to educate you on that further.
In an earlier post you called instructors who recommend .223 rifles for home defense "irresponsible". If you're going to throw around accusations like that, I think you have an obligation to back them up with evidence.
 
#39 ·
Agreed on all points Tango.

And I too had no idea my original response would result in what has occurred.
I apologize for the resulting thread jack. :|

Very much agreed though that .223/5.56 is fast flying and really powerful.

- Janq
 
#49 ·
In my mind, (for what it’s worth) touching off ANY hyper velocity rifle in one’s home is BEGGING for legal and negligent punishment. I know my .223 or 7.62x39 would make short work of the BG. However as a “responsible gun owner” playing commando in a populated area is stupidity. I will stick with much less “potent” rounds for in the house. Yes my .45 will make it through a wall, so will the 12 gauge. But odds are better they will not make it into the next house. I think a jury would chew you up if even one of those rounds made it next door. Don’t open yourself to legal trouble. I can hear the prosecuting attorney telling the jury, He was patrolling his house with a black assault rifle looking to inflict maximum carnage to his helpless victim. Packing 30 rounds, of super sonic, specialized killing ammo. I’m not here to argue… you all shoot what you want, but if one of those rounds ends up in some ones home or some ones kids, ask yourself….. ARE you going to feel REAL good about your choice of gun ????? A stray bullet is every bit your responsibility just like a well aimed one….Why take the risk...In fact a hunter here not long ago missed a deer . The bullet traveled more than a mile from his location and killed a small child. Guess how the jury ruled the shooting?
 
#50 ·
Yes my .45 will make it through a wall, so will the 12 gauge. But odds are better they will not make it into the next house.
If your house and the one next door are both wood framed, a pistol bullet is quite likely to make it into the next house. Pistol rounds will outpenetrate both buckshot and frangible rifle ammunition by a considerable margin.

Janq and I have our disagreements about rifle versus shotgun here, and people can draw what conclusions they will from our debate. However, if you take anything away from this thread, please realize that wood frame construction does NOT make a safe backstop for pistol bullets!
 
#51 ·
Agreed very much so on all points, Be. ^^

If anything I/we hope folks will walk away from this thread and know that there is no real backstop amongst your residential home, unless of course you are Batman and live in an earthen type cave.

What you in the end select for yourself is between you, possibly Deebo, and hopefully not your neighbor.

- Janq
 
#52 ·
If anything I/we hope folks will walk away from this thread and know that there is no real backstop amongst your residential home, unless of course you are Batman and live in an earthen type cave.

What you in the end select for yourself is between you, possibly Deebo, and hopefully not your neighbor.
Agreed. No choice of caliber or round can substitute for knowing your target and what is beyond it.
 
#53 ·
BlackEagle sez...

If your house and the one next door are both wood framed, a pistol bullet is quite likely to make it into the next house. Pistol rounds will outpenetrate both buckshot and frangible rifle ammunition by a considerable margin.

Janq and I have our disagreements about rifle versus shotgun here, and people can draw what conclusions they will from our debate. However, if you take anything away from this thread, please realize that wood frame construction does NOT make a safe backstop for pistol bullets!
Dead right... A quick search on YouTube will turn up video of 7.62 chomping up cinderblocks, and I have seen what .45 does to 3/4 inch plywood at 50-60 yards... wood frame construction is collateral damage looking for a victim.

The one thing missing from my collection is a shotgun...
 
#54 ·
Here are a couple decent articles on .223 penetration:

"Penetration tests conducted by department range staff and several other highly respected experts have resulted in the following conclusions (see accompanying chart for numbers):

"The first thing you notice is the startling over-penetration of the typical jacketed hollowpoint pistol bullet once its nose is packed with an inert substance. The second thing you notice is that the over-penetration effect of .223 rifle ammo may have been highly over-rated.

Selecting Home Defense Ammunition | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET


Here's another:

Results

Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
CCI Gold Dot.

Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the over penetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.

The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.

Olympic Arms, Inc. - Real World .223 Testing d=26

Chuck
 
#55 ·
I'm with jang. And then some. Find a road killed deer and put a 2 /34" one ounce load of #8 shot into it at typical HD distance for your home. That means measuring and duplicating that measurement. Look past that measurement to see who sleeps/resides down range. Attempt to see who's in danger there and by what round. If you aren't interested in the deer thing go to the local slaughter house and pick up a hog's head. Take the cheapest shotgun round you can buy [that will usually be the one that spreads the most in a short distance] and put that round into that hog's head [prefferably between the eyes]. Make your own decision. I've done all the above and have made up my mind based on what I saw. Just so it's not an issue I own an XM15, AK47, Benelli 12, Springfield Armory .45, and Witness Hunter 10MM. I've done this with each and every one plus shooting gallon jugs of water just to see how many get blown up and how badly.
 
#56 ·
This is most likely a hijack but, how do you guys, that use ARs, AKs and other black rifles for HD, sight in at such close ranges? :blink:
I know there probably are only one or two spots in my house that reach 25 yds.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'd really don't have enough experience to know.
 
#57 ·
This is most likely a hijack but, how do you guys, that use ARs, AKs and other black rifles for HD, sight in at such close ranges? :blink:
I know there probably are only one or two spots in my house that reach 25 yds.
I sight them in as usual (dead on at about 40 yards for an AK, around 25 for an AK). At closer distances you have to hold over a bit because the sights on both rifles are quite a ways above the bore.
 
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