.223 is strong stuff ...

This is a discussion on .223 is strong stuff ... within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Yeah I shot a wolf .223 rd in my Colt 6920 yesterday. Guess what? It put a clean hole through a treated 12 x 12 ...

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Thread: .223 is strong stuff ...

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    .223 is strong stuff ...

    Yeah I shot a wolf .223 rd in my Colt 6920 yesterday.

    Guess what? It put a clean hole through a treated 12 x 12 wood pylon yesterday. Fresh brand new lumber at that.

    I could see light through both holes. 12 inches of solid pressure treated lumber.... wow

    I then shot a 5.56 same thing. So both are pretty darn powerful.

    I was 10 feet away when I shot it. So I am sure that the velocity was at maximum force at the distance I was at.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    TS,

    Your discovery is a really good reason why for HD an AR even as a carbine is FTL as related to .223/5.56.

    I mention this only because your thread is posted in the 'Defensive Rifles & Shotgun' area. And that in the US all manner of residences are commonly constructed of wood and wood stud framing.

    Shotgun firing shot is safest overall considering that a residence basically has no 'backstop'.

    - Janq

    "Wood and Cinder Blocks. Wooden frame buildings and single cinder block walls offer little protection from 5.56mm rounds. When clearing such structures, soldiers must ensure friendly casualties do not result from rounds passing through walls, floors, or ceilings."
    Source - 5.56mm (5.56 x 45 mm) Ammunition
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Shotgun firing shot is safest overall considering that a residence basically has no 'backstop'.
    Wood frame construction isn't a safe backstop for any reasonable self-defense load in a shotgun either.

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    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    Yep... I tried out a dead bolt lock with my 9mm,.. Wouldn't penetrate,. Close range (7-8 yards).. A friend tried his 45APC (I knew that wouldn't do it) .... BUT - - - - -> the AR, ya.. It didn't think twice at about 150 yards,.. Blasted two holes clean thru it and the force on the second hit pushed it out the back,...

  6. #5
    BAC
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    Could you give a little more information about the ammo? I somehow suspect it's FMJ, which I don't think anybody anywhere advocates for .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO rounds for personal defense use. The quoted portion of Janq's reference is speaking directly to the use of military FMJ rounds.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Wood frame construction isn't a safe backstop for any reasonable self-defense load in a shotgun either.
    As I'd said, there is no backstop amongst a residential construction.

    With shotgun shot though being completely different in construction and velocity than rifle projectile though the chances of penetration, upon a missed shot, as into interior wall material (gypsum board or plaster) can be greatly mitigated in relation to penetration of that and out to the exterior. Greatly, as relative to rifle rounds and especially so .223/5.56.

    BAC it doesn't make much of a difference JHP or soft point or even FMJ.
    At CQC distances as within a home they all will zip right through studs, wood or metal.
    I've tried this myself using Remington 55 gr. JHP out of my Sig 556 against residential wood studs which I use to hold up my targets when at the range. At close distance not a problem out to as far as 40 yds. which was the furthest out I've tried it.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Yepper, lots of training facilities/trainers are recommending rifles chambered in 5.56/.233 as home defense firearms.
    I'm sticking with my shotty.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Could you give a little more information about the ammo? I somehow suspect it's FMJ, which I don't think anybody anywhere advocates for .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO rounds for personal defense use. The quoted portion of Janq's reference is speaking directly to the use of military FMJ rounds.


    -B

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    BAC
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    Actually it does matter quite a bit. Have you layered the material you were shooting at to accurately represent an interior wall? What barrel length is your rifle, and what velocities were you getting out of your rifle/ammo combo? Did you try other ammunition, like the more common personal defense rounds, or at the very least equivalent rounds with different bullets (offerings from Barnes, Sierra, etc.)? Further, did you compare results to that of common shotgun loads?

    There's a fair amount of literature showing that .223 and 5.56 NATO are less likely to overpenetrate wall material than common handgun and shotgun loads, and a lot of PDs with entry teams are switching from the 9mm and .45 ACP sub guns to short-barreled ARs. I'm generally a skeptic, but here I'm seeing more evidence leaning one way versus the other.


    -B
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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    With shotgun shot though being completely different in construction and velocity than rifle projectile though the chances of penetration, upon a missed shot, as into interior wall material (gypsum board or plaster) can be greatly mitigated in relation to penetration of that and out to the exterior.
    Buckshot will go through drywall like a hot knife through butter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    BAC it doesn't make much of a difference JHP or soft point or even FMJ.
    Yep. Going through drywall, JHP/soft point are going to perform just like FMJ. You need a fluid medium like water or flesh for them to start expanding. Frangible rifle bullets, on the other hand, will tend to go to pieces when penetrating layered barriers like interior walls. That's why I think a rifle loaded with good frangibles like the Hornady TAP or VMAX, or some of the Barnes frangibles Cor-Bon is loading are an excellent choice for home defense.

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    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Actually it does matter quite a bit. Have you layered the material you were shooting at to accurately represent an interior wall? What barrel length is your rifle, and what velocities were you getting out of your rifle/ammo combo? Did you try other ammunition, like the more common personal defense rounds, or at the very least equivalent rounds with different bullets (offerings from Barnes, Sierra, etc.)? Further, did you compare results to that of common shotgun loads?

    There's a fair amount of literature showing that .223 and 5.56 NATO are less likely to overpenetrate wall material than common handgun and shotgun loads, and a lot of PDs with entry teams are switching from the 9mm and .45 ACP sub guns to short-barreled ARs. I'm generally a skeptic, but here I'm seeing more evidence leaning one way versus the other.


    -B
    You are right. Many agencies are switching from pistol caliber sub guns to SBRs in 5.56. However, NATO ball or similar ammo is generally used for training only. To reduce the danger of over penetration, soft point or ballistic tip ammo is used. These are not frangible rounds! They are designed to penetrate and will come out the other side of the target. But as they transit the target, the break up rather than pulverize like a frangible round does. The pieces that do leave the target and travel downrange only weigh a few grains and carry much less energy with them. The ones that I have used are the Hornady TAP round and the Federal TRU round. Both have performed very well. They (IMHO) should be considered as the best choice for all but rural home defense ammo for the 5.56 weapons.
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

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    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Yeah, the AR goes BANG really loud! :) And it is designed to make a mess of stuff and people at distance.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

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    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    I know this is a "Defensive forum" but since this rifle is to be used by many for SD it is nice to know what the ammo can do in plain english, no numbers, discussion. Just simple paint a picture and say wow that is strong conversation.

    Here is another scenario that I put he rifle through:

    1.5 liter drinking water bottle. I think Dasani (coke brand).

    Put it on top of a pole 4 feet off the ground with the base on the pole and the white screw top screwed on all the way.

    Bottle was completely EMPTY!! This is the important part.

    A slight breeze might have sent the bottle flying as it was simply sitting there on the pole not attached.

    I walked back 65 or so yards, aimed, squeezed trig, bang@!!!! Bottle didn't move??? What did I miss?

    So I walked up to the bottle to check it out and notice a tiny little .22 caliber sized hole in the plastic screw top clean through both sides. The bottle didnt even move but the bullet ripped through the top like a laser would have.

    WOW that is a fast moving high power round no matter what anyone here sais'. Did I say the water bottle was empty and a breeze could have sent it flying.

    I've shot tons and tons and tons of these rounds in the military but we never penetrate tested it with common house hold items.

    My next test will be penetration on an old cast iron skillet I have that is ruined. It is about .5 inches thick. I will snipe this pan from about 50 yards behind a sand pile in case it wants to come back at me. Ill post picks if I get around to it.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

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    Ex Member Array thylordjj's Avatar
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    Hehehe try hitting it with 7.62x54r its like trying to stop lightining...

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Buckshot will go through drywall like a hot knife through butter.
    Correct.

    Though for HD within a residence there are other options than hunting game buckshot, which very much less tends to penetrate exterior and even in cases interior walls.

    As to frangible .223/5.56 that too will zip right along.
    TBOT did a test on that in specific some time ago; http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_2.htm

    Agreed QK.
    Those 'instructors' are being irresponsible in doing so by suggestion as relative to the general public, at roughly the 90th percentile range.
    As in people who largely even amongst 'rural' areas do not live alone and in cabin type homes or on property that is separate from _all_ human civilization be they neighbors or traveled roads and grounds by at least 2 miles in a 360 degree radius.

    - Janq lives in a rural town and county, and would not at all think an AR is safe nor sensible for HD
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Yeah my .30-06 is a beast! As I posted earlier I think my next purchase is a 300 weatherby or win mag depending on my budget and so forth.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

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