What can't the AR-15 do?

This is a discussion on What can't the AR-15 do? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by David in FL It can't not shoot through the walls of your house......and your neighbor's too. Not a great platform for many, ...

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Thread: What can't the AR-15 do?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    It can't not shoot through the walls of your house......and your neighbor's too.

    Not a great platform for many, maybe even most, home defense scenarios as a result.
    With the right loads, it's no more likely to over penetrate than a pistol caliber round.

    http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...f=118&t=169328

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  3. #17
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    With the right loads, it's no more likely to over penetrate than a pistol caliber round.

    http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...f=118&t=169328

    Matt
    Let me rephrase.....with the ammunition that 99.9% of AR owners use, it's not an appropriate home defense platform.

    Better?
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmoose View Post
    It seems that it is great for defense, survival (small-medium game), breakdown of society, revolution, and the range. Why would someone need more than a CC handgun and an AR?

    I'm also interested in a .357 lever rifle because that's the revolver caliber I have. Aside from capacity limits, what couldn't a cowboy rifle do?
    From what I hear it has trouble firing reliably when it gets dirty/muddy unlike the AK-47. I love them, just have to keep them clean.
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Skygod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chains1240 View Post
    From what I hear it has trouble firing reliably when it gets dirty/muddy unlike the AK-47. I love them, just have to keep them clean.
    "from what you hear"

    Have you been to combat with an M4/M16 series rifle ?? If not then I would suspend the dispensing of advice until at which time you have taken one into battle and seen it's reliabilty or unreliabilty first hand.

    Don't believe everything your read.

    I've had an M4 run 3,000 + rounds without the need for cleaning or lubrication. At which point I detailed stripped the weapon and cleaned and lubricated it once again. I carried spare bolts, extractors, extractor springs, firing pins etc and only once had to replace a part within the bolt carrier group to keep on throwng lead down range.
    Perhaps your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

  7. #21
    Member Array chains1240's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skygod View Post
    "from what you hear"

    Have you been to combat with an M4/M16 series rifle ?? If not then I would suspend the dispensing of advice until at which time you have taken one into battle and seen it's reliabilty or unreliabilty first hand.

    Don't believe everything your read.

    I've had an M4 run 3,000 + rounds without the need for cleaning or lubrication. At which point I detailed stripped the weapon and cleaned and lubricated it once again. I carried spare bolts, extractors, extractor springs, firing pins etc and only once had to replace a part within the bolt carrier group to keep on throwng lead down range.
    Didn't mean to touch a nerve. I will make sure that in the future I only reply to things that I am an expert in.
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  8. #22
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    The M-16/AR series of rifles is extremely versatile, and can be designed to do darn near anything. They can run rather dirty, maybe not to the extent of an AK, but can take a fair number of rounds in bad enviroments (mud, dust, ect...) without issues. Everything from CQB to precision shooting, although you probably will need to modify the weapon to fill the different roles.

    I do enjoy my lever action rifles, especially my Henry .22 and Marlin .357, both of them just seem to handle and shoot naturally for me, and I honestly would feel comfortable with the .357 as my hd weapon instead of my AR (that being said, I have more experience operating an AR style weapon under stress, so that is my go to). But if you can find a .357 lever action at a decent price, you won't be dissappointed by it.
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  9. #23
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    Taking a broader view...almost by definition, a self defense situation is very likely to be at short range. The longer the range, the more difficult it is to legally justify a shooting. Even in a temporary breakdown of law and order, there will eventually be legal fallout from any shot taken in self defense. Can you demonstrate that someone 200 yards away had the Means (long range weapon?), Intent (unless really obvious how do you know what they intend?), and Ability (decreases with distance) to kill/seriously harm you?

    As such, I consider the shotgun to be the preferable self defense long gun. More firepower at short range, and can also be used for hunting small game (birdshot) or larger game (buckshot) or at extended distance (slugs). For those of smaller stature that might be recoil sensitive, I would try a 20g shotgun before going to the carbine or rifle.

    The AR platform is very versatile to be sure, but I'm not convinced that any rifle or carbine is preferable to a good shotgun for defensive purposes. I have one (a Mini 14) "just in case" but I really cannot foresee a realistic scenario where I would use it instead of my shotgun.

    JMHO.
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  10. #24
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    edr - the 6.8, except for diameter, is a lot closer to a .243 than .270 when comparing ballistics (energy and velocity) - but still damn good for anything up to deer or defense.

    OT:
    If you have a telescoping stock, it's good to teach young kids about shooting w/o having to get a youth stock they'll outgrow in a few years.

  11. #25
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    I would try a 20g shotgun before going to the carbine or rifle.
    I also have a 20ga. The one thing that does play a large role is that I want anyone in the family to be able to shoot every gun in the house. I guess my experience with an AR makes it easy to operate, maintain, etc. for me but not everyone else. Granted training is extremely important but who's to say that my wife, children, wouldn't brain dump everything in a stressful scenario. Maybe the lever K.I.S.S. theory is one of the best defense starategies.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Skygod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chains1240 View Post
    Didn't mean to touch a nerve. I will make sure that in the future I only reply to things that I am an expert in.
    I apologize. That was not a necessary type post.

    Here's some of my findings with AR/15/M4/M16 naysayers.

    1. Plenty of studies have been done, but not scientifically regarding the M4 rifle and it's inherent qualities or inequalites. Most of these where simply random samples of interviews with soldiers in the GWOT that in truth have no idea how to keep an M4 rifle running properly. (Insert 18 year old ANG unit soldier with minimal training hearing that something is better)

    2. I've seen inexperienced soldiers running their M4 rifles totally free of lubricant. Why ? Someone told them that lubrication attracks sand. I'd rather have a wet sandy gun than a dry sandy gun. Hence failures to extract, timing problems and other malfunctions related to dry bolts and operating components.

    3. Poor marksmanship. This is being addressed, however the vast majority of conventional soldiers are trained at the least common denominator. "This rifle can't hit the broad side of a barn" This is an operator issue not a rifle issue when basic marksmenship skills are not inherent in the training of new recruits. The Marine Corps does a better job of this than the United States Army.


    4. Reliance on fancy optics and not basic skill sets with regard to marksmenship . What if your CCO or ACOG goes down in the field ?? Is the soldier prepared to use his or her iron sights with any accuracy and speed ? I hope so, but reliance on technology is sometimes to a soldiers detriment. That is why more advanced shooters are almost alway's co-witnessing their back up irons with their CCO/HWS/Red Dot optics.

    Just saying. My .02

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skygod View Post
    I apologize. That was not a necessary type post.

    Here's some of my findings with AR/15/M4/M16 naysayers.

    1. Plenty of studies have been done, but not scientifically regarding the M4 rifle and it's inherent qualities or inequalites. Most of these where simply random samples of interviews with soldiers in the GWOT that in truth have no idea how to keep an M4 rifle running properly. (Insert 18 year old ANG unit soldier with minimal training hearing that something is better)

    2. I've seen inexperienced soldiers running their M4 rifles totally free of lubricant. Why ? Someone told them that lubrication attracks sand. I'd rather have a wet sandy gun than a dry sandy gun. Hence failures to extract, timing problems and other malfunctions related to dry bolts and operating components.

    3. Poor marksmanship. This is being addressed, however the vast majority of conventional soldiers are trained at the least common denominator. "This rifle can't hit the broad side of a barn" This is an operator issue not a rifle issue when basic marksmenship skills are not inherent in the training of new recruits. The Marine Corps does a better job of this than the United States Army.


    4. Reliance on fancy optics and not basic skill sets with regard to marksmenship . What if your CCO or ACOG goes down in the field ?? Is the soldier prepared to use his or her iron sights with any accuracy and speed ? I hope so, but reliance on technology is sometimes to a soldiers detriment. That is why more advanced shooters are almost alway's co-witnessing their back up irons with their CCO/HWS/Red Dot optics.

    Just saying. My .02

    4.
    +1 to all you said with 16 months of combat experience to back it up.

    A maintained and lubed AR is an excellent weapon. The issued Colts worked well, but I am more impressed with the other ARs on the market as far as reliability goes, but you gotta dance with who brung yah, and mine never failed me. I participated in a new training course called Squad Designated Marksmen and after a week of training, 90% of the soldiers in the class were hitting man sized targets at 600m with ironsights as a course requirement. That being said, for the most part only good marksmen were eligible to take the course.

    My only complaint about the AR in our current situation is the size of the round. Not as effective as I would have liked for disabling a vehicle (other than bleeding the radiator) or the occupants inside.

    I also dropped a deer at about 150yards with my AR last year, so, it'll do that too.

    Yep, the AR can do almost everything effectivley.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Reloading is a bit time consuming.
    Not any worse than loading a pump shotgun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Taking a broader view...almost by definition, a self defense situation is very likely to be at short range. The longer the range, the more difficult it is to legally justify a shooting. Even in a temporary breakdown of law and order, there will eventually be legal fallout from any shot taken in self defense. Can you demonstrate that someone 200 yards away had the Means (long range weapon?), Intent (unless really obvious how do you know what they intend?), and Ability (decreases with distance) to kill/seriously harm you?

    As such, I consider the shotgun to be the preferable self defense long gun. More firepower at short range, and can also be used for hunting small game (birdshot) or larger game (buckshot) or at extended distance (slugs). For those of smaller stature that might be recoil sensitive, I would try a 20g shotgun before going to the carbine or rifle.

    The AR platform is very versatile to be sure, but I'm not convinced that any rifle or carbine is preferable to a good shotgun for defensive purposes. I have one (a Mini 14) "just in case" but I really cannot foresee a realistic scenario where I would use it instead of my shotgun.

    JMHO.
    You make an excellent point, my shotgun would be the first thing I grab, however, if I had a .357 levergun, it might be a close second, as I feel it is as quick handling and easily top off like a shotgun. I've practiced this with my .30-.30 some.

  16. #30
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterX View Post
    Not any worse than loading a pump shotgun.
    I think a pump gun is a bit easier with the differences in loading gates and size of the shells vs. cartridges. Especially if you're a righty.

    YMMV

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