So what would be the alternative to the AR15?
This is a discussion on So what would be the alternative to the AR15? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I already have an AR15, so some of this may be moot. Still…
I bought an AR15 recently. Lots of debate as to the reliability, ...
December 2nd, 2009 01:54 AM
So what would be the alternative to the AR15?
I already have an AR15, so some of this may be moot. Still…
I bought an AR15 recently. Lots of debate as to the reliability, function, design, etc, etc, etc and whether there is better out there. I have been following some of the threads, most notably U.S. Army Agrees That The M-4 Stinks. Many have suggested better combat rifles than the AR15. Some suggest the AK, some suggest the HK416, some suggest the gas piston Ruger, some are waiting for the Remington ACR, etc, etc, etc.
When I bought my combat rifle, I decided to go with the AR15 platform because as of right now, it is the military’s main weapon. It is ubiquitous and parts are widely available. As are accessories and extra magazines. And finally, it was substantially less expensive than a piston based rifle. I.e., $1200 for the AR15 vs. $3500 for the HK416. The parts and all the accessories are also cheaper than the alternative. For example, magazines can be purchased for about $15 each where as magazines for the HK416 are like $75 (don’t quote me. But they are substantially more expensive) and they are harder to get. Parts for the HK416 are also harder to get as well as more expensive.
So I guess it truly comes down to dollars and availability. The AR platform is much less expensive than the alternatives and easier to find parts and accessories for. Why go with a platform that would be almost impossible to maintain should TSHTF and/or more expensive to maintain on a regular basis? In an urban conflict like we would most like see here in America, the gun should work just fine.
Last edited by ExactlyMyPoint; December 2nd, 2009 at 10:53 AM.
Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.
December 2nd, 2009 06:04 AM
Hence why I run mine.
When do you heard of people going through their AR and replacing gas rings, extractor springs, mag springs, and buffer springs? AFTER problems pop up. The stuff's cheap, it'll only cost about $30 shipped for all of the parts to get shipped to your house and should be replaced every few thousand rounds to keep it running right - just like the springs in your pistol. If they're weak, you won't get the proper functionality out of it.
Like you said, toss in the fact that the AR is by far the most popular rifle platform in the U.S.A., is the rifle/carbine of choice of our military, and police, and that any service member in the last 30-40 years knows how to run and maintain it.....why WOULDN'T you pick that platform if your reason for purchasing it is as you listed above?
That being said, I'd like to see the military switch to 6.5 Grendel and either keep the AR platform, or switch to running the ACR platform - but that's personal opinion :)
December 2nd, 2009 07:47 AM
the versitility of the modular AR is another reason its popular.
With 2 pins you you pop off the top pop on a 20" .308 with optic and bipod change the mag and presto... you have sharp shooter rifle.
Another upper and mag change and you have a 50 cal cannon.
There are uppers that allow you to run pistol calibers like 9mm and .45 (although rare).
The uppers aren't serial numbered so you can mail order them. Its fully upgradable with drop in triggers and gadgets that would make even the pickiest mall ninja be proud to be American!
There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
December 2nd, 2009 08:34 AM
I really like the new HK 416, but the price is ridiculous. I love my EBR and plan on having it for a long time. It's cheap and reliable as long as it is maintained. I totally get the gripes of the guys and gals on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, but even in AZ I am not in that kind of environment where I can't keep my rifle clean and functioning well.
December 2nd, 2009 09:06 AM
All they need to do to the AR is drop on a gas-piston top end and their problem is solved. You then have a rifle that is just as reliable as any other gun out there.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
December 2nd, 2009 09:41 AM
Gas-piston, 5.56/.223 round
Nothing beats a SIG!
I personally prefer the DMR version
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
December 2nd, 2009 09:59 AM
Actually I've never been a fan of the AR format rifles though I can handle one and I shoot one just fine.
Years ago I made a decision to stay with the Galil because that is the rifle platform that I am most intimately familiar with.
It has some advantages over the AR15 (for me) but, it is not without some disadvantages - being heavier - plus magazines and original IMI accessories are comparatively expensive....often prohibitively so.
I feel that the advantages (again...for me) are as follows:
> It is every bit as accurate as the ARs with the correct bullet weight.
The rifling twist prefers a lighter weight bullet though it will easily handle all heavier bullet weights...just slightly minus the pinpoint accuracy.
> The receiver is milled/machined from a solid block of steel.
The barrels are incredibly tough.
> The factory iron sights are very good and SOLID and feature Tritium night sight inserts.
> Since it was originally designed/intended as a fully automatic squad weapon, it's extremely overbuilt in "semi-automatic only" mode and basically just never needs "spare parts."
> Field stripping/complete cleaning is a "walk in the park" - the rifle is not complex and there are not many parts in total.
> The action is battle proved and incredibly simple and it just gobbles up dirt and sand and it can run fine dry, dirty, and gritty.
> The original IMI trigger is good and crisp with no creep.
Mine are anyway. I've not had to do anything to improve on my triggers.
> Original IMI Factory magazines are amazingly high quality.
The 50 round magazine run just great though they will "monopod" the attached bipod because (of course) they are longer than the 35s.
> The early Magnum Research Import Galils are Uber High Quality and extremely carefully precision "fit" & built.
Back then...Israel needed to sell Galils in the U.S. in order to raise $$$ to equip their own forces with the Galil.
And they were really building them right back then.
The U.S. "parts built" clones and domestic clones are usually never as good as the original first imports.
> The optics mounting system is "rock solid" and just cannot move once it is installed.
IF you have an IMI original mount that slides into the slot milled into the steel receiver.
Question: ~ So...what will STOP you from buying a Magnum Research Galil these days?
Answer: ~ The price of the basic rifle and the cost of the accessories which will likely bankrupt you.
I bought my 2 back when they were $900.00 and change.
These days you can about triple that.
photo swiped from the web.
All that having been said....I would certainly not feel the least bit undergunned, naked, or unprotected with a good AR.
It's just that since I am already where I'm at...and completely 100% satisfied - there is no logical reason for me to shop for something else.
I'll never need anything other than what I already have.
December 2nd, 2009 10:14 AM
December 2nd, 2009 10:19 AM
Alternative to the AR-15 for what? For now I'll assume you mean to replace the M16 and M4 as standard US service rifles.
Since I'm in the Christmas spirit, I'll start with my 'nice' list. I'm excited about the Remington/Bushmaster ACR. It's only slightly heavier than a NIB M4 Carbine and seems to have everything necessary to be a solid rifle. However, it's also not available. The FN SCAR is probably a more durable and reliable rifle than the AR, but it hasn't really wowed the soldiers who've handled it. I'm not a fan of the location of the reciprocating charging handle and the amount of uncovered barrel (I like longer rails, and there're some very good reasons to). The KAC SR-15 E3 looks awesome, has solid upgrades, and is priced well; there are already examples of these rifles with 20k+ rounds in short time spans. I expect it to be a good competitor to replace the M4.
My list of 'naughy' starts with the H&K 416 is too expensive for what it does and has H&K and all associated attached. The SIG 556 hasn't exactly been impressive, and I don't expect it to be any real competitor to replace the M4. The Z-M Weapons LR300/Para Tactical Target Rifle looks like a good idea, but no one's ever managed to work the bugs out of the system; if they could I think it would be a great competitor for those on the 'nice' list to replace our M4.
I can't think of any other rifles that warrant mention (I feel like I'm forgetting a couple though... ). I'm not sure if LWRC fits into the 'nice' or 'naughty' list. They get mixed reviews, though those issues (CS-, QC-related) seem to be more oriented towards the beginning of the company and less an issue now. I'm not sure if they'd even try to compete to replace the M4 (they're a pretty small an outfit), but their M6 is certainly a popular rifle with many examples of very high round counts over multiple training environments. I suppose it gets honorable mention, though it's shifting more 'nice' than 'naughty'.
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December 2nd, 2009 02:19 PM
NO other platform out there can beat a AR's modularity, accuracy and price for value..
most free floated AR's will out shoot most bolt guns...
you can covert a AR15 to shoot
with a simple upper change
and thats just the 1's i can think of, i know there are more, and thats not even counting the AR10 platforms
December 2nd, 2009 09:15 PM
CMMG already has that.
Originally Posted by edr9x23super
December 3rd, 2009 12:32 AM
I am so jealous. I always knew you were a Galil fan..........That is really really nice.
I bought my 2 back when they were $900.00 and change.........
December 3rd, 2009 01:56 PM
Funny that the AK was only mentioned in passing in the first post. I chose the AK as a SHTF platform. I didn't want a Tinker Toy project nor a rifle that wants to be coddled. Sure you can mod an AR-15 'til the cows come home, but that's a project rifle. I don't want something sitting on my workbench if I ever need it. I won't need to pick the wings off flies at 500 yards, so pinpoint accuracy is also a non-issue.
The AK is winner on all counts. It is inexpensive and the more-than-adequate 7.62 x 39 mm ammo is cheap and easy to obtain. Parts are also cheap and plentiful. I just bought five brand new Yugoslavian 30-round mags for $99 - delivered to my door in 48 hours. I also bought 1000 round brick of ammo for $239 - also delivered in 48 hours for that price. No shipping charges.
Most important of all - that AK can sit untended in my safe for years and still reliably go bang anytime I need it. I pull mine out every so often for fun range shooting, but I don't want it as a hobby. When I looked at the AR, most fans are into modding and tweaking them. I simply wanted tough, reliable, and big enough to get the job done.
Last edited by MadMac; December 3rd, 2009 at 04:19 PM.
December 3rd, 2009 05:16 PM
I have a Golani Sporter... the price alone tells me it's not the rifle a true Galil is, but it runs like a watch (even when dirty), eats every brand of ammo I've fed it, and solid as a rock. Not quite as accurate as my AR, but I'm really, really glad I bought this rifle...
"Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"
December 3rd, 2009 05:22 PM
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