December 2nd, 2009 01:54 AM
So what would be the alternative to the AR15?
I already have an AR15, so some of this may be moot. Still…
I bought an AR15 recently. Lots of debate as to the reliability, function, design, etc, etc, etc and whether there is better out there. I have been following some of the threads, most notably U.S. Army Agrees That The M-4 Stinks. Many have suggested better combat rifles than the AR15. Some suggest the AK, some suggest the HK416, some suggest the gas piston Ruger, some are waiting for the Remington ACR, etc, etc, etc.
When I bought my combat rifle, I decided to go with the AR15 platform because as of right now, it is the military’s main weapon. It is ubiquitous and parts are widely available. As are accessories and extra magazines. And finally, it was substantially less expensive than a piston based rifle. I.e., $1200 for the AR15 vs. $3500 for the HK416. The parts and all the accessories are also cheaper than the alternative. For example, magazines can be purchased for about $15 each where as magazines for the HK416 are like $75 (don’t quote me. But they are substantially more expensive) and they are harder to get. Parts for the HK416 are also harder to get as well as more expensive.
So I guess it truly comes down to dollars and availability. The AR platform is much less expensive than the alternatives and easier to find parts and accessories for. Why go with a platform that would be almost impossible to maintain should TSHTF and/or more expensive to maintain on a regular basis? In an urban conflict like we would most like see here in America, the gun should work just fine.
Last edited by ExactlyMyPoint; December 2nd, 2009 at 10:53 AM.
Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.
December 2nd, 2009 06:04 AM
Hence why I run mine.
When do you heard of people going through their AR and replacing gas rings, extractor springs, mag springs, and buffer springs? AFTER problems pop up. The stuff's cheap, it'll only cost about $30 shipped for all of the parts to get shipped to your house and should be replaced every few thousand rounds to keep it running right - just like the springs in your pistol. If they're weak, you won't get the proper functionality out of it.
Like you said, toss in the fact that the AR is by far the most popular rifle platform in the U.S.A., is the rifle/carbine of choice of our military, and police, and that any service member in the last 30-40 years knows how to run and maintain it.....why WOULDN'T you pick that platform if your reason for purchasing it is as you listed above?
That being said, I'd like to see the military switch to 6.5 Grendel and either keep the AR platform, or switch to running the ACR platform - but that's personal opinion :)
December 2nd, 2009 07:47 AM
the versitility of the modular AR is another reason its popular.
With 2 pins you you pop off the top pop on a 20" .308 with optic and bipod change the mag and presto... you have sharp shooter rifle.
Another upper and mag change and you have a 50 cal cannon.
There are uppers that allow you to run pistol calibers like 9mm and .45 (although rare).
The uppers aren't serial numbered so you can mail order them. Its fully upgradable with drop in triggers and gadgets that would make even the pickiest mall ninja be proud to be American!
There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
December 2nd, 2009 08:34 AM
I really like the new HK 416, but the price is ridiculous. I love my EBR and plan on having it for a long time. It's cheap and reliable as long as it is maintained. I totally get the gripes of the guys and gals on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, but even in AZ I am not in that kind of environment where I can't keep my rifle clean and functioning well.
December 2nd, 2009 09:06 AM
All they need to do to the AR is drop on a gas-piston top end and their problem is solved. You then have a rifle that is just as reliable as any other gun out there.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
December 2nd, 2009 09:41 AM
Gas-piston, 5.56/.223 round
Nothing beats a SIG!
I personally prefer the DMR version
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
December 2nd, 2009 09:59 AM
December 2nd, 2009 10:14 AM
December 2nd, 2009 10:19 AM
Alternative to the AR-15 for what? For now I'll assume you mean to replace the M16 and M4 as standard US service rifles.
Since I'm in the Christmas spirit, I'll start with my 'nice' list. I'm excited about the Remington/Bushmaster ACR. It's only slightly heavier than a NIB M4 Carbine and seems to have everything necessary to be a solid rifle. However, it's also not available. The FN SCAR is probably a more durable and reliable rifle than the AR, but it hasn't really wowed the soldiers who've handled it. I'm not a fan of the location of the reciprocating charging handle and the amount of uncovered barrel (I like longer rails, and there're some very good reasons to). The KAC SR-15 E3 looks awesome, has solid upgrades, and is priced well; there are already examples of these rifles with 20k+ rounds in short time spans. I expect it to be a good competitor to replace the M4.
My list of 'naughy' starts with the H&K 416 is too expensive for what it does and has H&K and all associated attached. The SIG 556 hasn't exactly been impressive, and I don't expect it to be any real competitor to replace the M4. The Z-M Weapons LR300/Para Tactical Target Rifle looks like a good idea, but no one's ever managed to work the bugs out of the system; if they could I think it would be a great competitor for those on the 'nice' list to replace our M4.
I can't think of any other rifles that warrant mention (I feel like I'm forgetting a couple though... ). I'm not sure if LWRC fits into the 'nice' or 'naughty' list. They get mixed reviews, though those issues (CS-, QC-related) seem to be more oriented towards the beginning of the company and less an issue now. I'm not sure if they'd even try to compete to replace the M4 (they're a pretty small an outfit), but their M6 is certainly a popular rifle with many examples of very high round counts over multiple training environments. I suppose it gets honorable mention, though it's shifting more 'nice' than 'naughty'.
RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.
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December 2nd, 2009 02:19 PM
NO other platform out there can beat a AR's modularity, accuracy and price for value..
most free floated AR's will out shoot most bolt guns...
you can covert a AR15 to shoot
with a simple upper change
and thats just the 1's i can think of, i know there are more, and thats not even counting the AR10 platforms
December 2nd, 2009 09:15 PM
CMMG already has that.
Originally Posted by edr9x23super
December 3rd, 2009 12:32 AM
I am so jealous. I always knew you were a Galil fan..........That is really really nice.
I bought my 2 back when they were $900.00 and change.........
December 3rd, 2009 01:56 PM
Funny that the AK was only mentioned in passing in the first post. I chose the AK as a SHTF platform. I didn't want a Tinker Toy project nor a rifle that wants to be coddled. Sure you can mod an AR-15 'til the cows come home, but that's a project rifle. I don't want something sitting on my workbench if I ever need it. I won't need to pick the wings off flies at 500 yards, so pinpoint accuracy is also a non-issue.
The AK is winner on all counts. It is inexpensive and the more-than-adequate 7.62 x 39 mm ammo is cheap and easy to obtain. Parts are also cheap and plentiful. I just bought five brand new Yugoslavian 30-round mags for $99 - delivered to my door in 48 hours. I also bought 1000 round brick of ammo for $239 - also delivered in 48 hours for that price. No shipping charges.
Most important of all - that AK can sit untended in my safe for years and still reliably go bang anytime I need it. I pull mine out every so often for fun range shooting, but I don't want it as a hobby. When I looked at the AR, most fans are into modding and tweaking them. I simply wanted tough, reliable, and big enough to get the job done.
Last edited by MadMac; December 3rd, 2009 at 04:19 PM.
December 3rd, 2009 05:16 PM
I have a Golani Sporter... the price alone tells me it's not the rifle a true Galil is, but it runs like a watch (even when dirty), eats every brand of ammo I've fed it, and solid as a rock. Not quite as accurate as my AR, but I'm really, really glad I bought this rifle...
"Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"
December 3rd, 2009 05:22 PM
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