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This is a discussion on New FFL Forum within the FFL Dealer Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 4tysmith I'm an LLC, basically a hybrid corporation. Doesn't make much difference as the corporation will be the FFL and you, personally, ...

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  1. #31
    New Member Array AlreadyInUse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4tysmith View Post
    I'm an LLC, basically a hybrid corporation. Doesn't make much difference as the corporation will be the FFL and you, personally, will not be. All this really means is if you want to buy a personal gun, you'll have to run a 4473 on yourself just like any customer because you don't have the FFL, the corporation does.

    The Blue Letters Is the Quote!..

    So I'm wondering If maybe being a Corporation Is not such a good Idea?..... Or If Is, Why? If I want a Personal gun I have to sell back to myself, Also Maybe this would be better asked to a Business Major lol..
    But Even though I have a Corporation..Could I put the FFL just In my Name?..And have the gun shop be kind of like sub-contracted in side the Sporting goods store which I plan to have along with the Gun part of It?
    Any Thoughts or Input on this would be much appreciated!!

    LLC protects you personally from alot of ambulance chasing practices. It's relatively cheap, and it looks like you are serious about making this a money making enterprise. ATF doesn't like people going after FFLs as a way to buy guns cheap for themselves. IF you take a weapon into a personal collection, put it the book when it comes into inventory, goes out to your collection, NO 4473 required, and keep it in your collection for at least a year, they are good with that. See 478.125a of the reference guide.


  2. #32
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    On the ITAR, the way it was explained to me, if you import,export or sell to the US Government, it is required. The bigger volume 07's do pay it, most one man shops dont.
    ITAR is specifically for manufactured Defense Items, which is pretty much anything and everything the way it is written.

    Since alot of 07's like myself do none of the above, we dont pay it. The State Dept. dosent care until we try to get U.S. contracts or import/export and they generally dont have the time,resources or gumption to mess with us little fish. It is something you need to be aware of especially if you intend to get some Government Contracts because it IS required.

    There is a lot of misinformation on the Internet about ITAR, many are convinced that ALL 07's need it, if in doubt contact a lawyer that specializes in Corprorate Law.

    I'll scotch Alreadyinuse on the 4473. It would make no sense to have to fill out a 4473 on yourself. If you do buy for your own personal use, its best that you keep your personal guns in a different safe. At the very minimum you are supposed to have a tag fillled out on guns that are not for sale, that say" not for sale". Lots of FFL's forget this and it causes the ATF fits and if they have fits with the way you are doing things, then you'll have fits.
    4tysmith likes this.
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  3. #33
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    Alreadyinuse/Hotguns...Thanks for the Great Info! Yes..Alreadyinuse YES! I Intend to make money, I just hope the Community I'm going Into Intends to Spend! lol..
    So Basically It's Ok for me to Stay with my corporation, But How about the Fact of Getting the FFL In my name Instead of the Corporation? Or will they allow that? Otherwise I'll just do like you said and allocate to my personal collection for minimum of a Year!! I also Intend on Putting a 6-8 lane Indoor Firing range all on the same property, It a Nice size building that will accommodate all very well! As a Matter of fact I received some plans and bids today for bullet stops, baffle's and shooting booth's!!
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  4. #34
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    But How about the Fact of Getting the FFL In my name Instead of the Corporation?
    Corporation is best. Look at it like this...would YOU rather get sued or would you rather have the corporation get sued?

    Do everything under the name of the Corporation, that way if somebody commits suicide on your range and then his wife sues you for letting him use your range, you wont lose your house,car,dog and cat. You'll only use what is listed in the Corporation.

    Make sense?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Corporation is best. Look at it like this...would YOU rather get sued or would you rather have the corporation get sued?

    Do everything under the name of the Corporation, that way if somebody commits suicide on your range and then his wife sues you for letting him use your range, you wont lose your house,car,dog and cat. You'll only use what is listed in the Corporation.

    Make sense?
    Very good point!! Thanks again!! ...i'll leave ya guys alone for tonight But I'm sure i'll have more, some have accused me of being over prepared if that is possible lol...
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4tysmith View Post
    I'm an LLC, basically a hybrid corporation. Doesn't make much difference as the corporation will be the FFL and you, personally, will not be. All this really means is if you want to buy a personal gun, you'll have to run a 4473 on yourself just like any customer because you don't have the FFL, the corporation does.

    The Blue Letters Is the Quote!..

    So I'm wondering If maybe being a Corporation Is not such a good Idea?..... Or If Is, Why? If I want a Personal gun I have to sell back to myself, Also Maybe this would be better asked to a Business Major lol..
    But Even though I have a Corporation..Could I put the FFL just In my Name?..And have the gun shop be kind of like sub-contracted in side the Sporting goods store which I plan to have along with the Gun part of It?
    Any Thoughts or Input on this would be much appreciated!!

    You have a couple of misconceptions. First as a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC), unless you filed as a Type S-corporation (50 or more members), for tax purposes, if you are an individual, you file the same as a Sole Proprietor on Schedule C (profit or loss statement). on your personal Federal income tax return. If there are 2 or more members in the LLC you will file IRS Form 1065, exactly the same as a Partnership. Also, If you are an individual owner with an LLC you are required to retain a Registered Agent. If you are an LLC with 2 or more members you may submit a form to your state so you can act as your own registered agent. Unless you are self insured, it is advisable to retain a registered agent in the event that your LLC is sued.

    FFL's are not issued to Corporations or other business entities. The name on your FFL license certificate may or may not list your company name. The Name in some instances is the same as that of the licensee depending on how the license application was filed. The name is not important and can be amended. What is important is the address. That is the place where ALL over the counter transactions must be made. The only exception is gun shows.

    There is only ONE licensee per business address. Only that person signs his license with his Licensee/Responsible Person signature and company title. If you have more than one store, each store must have a separate FFL Licensee/Responsible Person since the address of each place of business will be different. The Licensee responsible for multiple stores can be the same person regardless of the business entity.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    You have a couple of misconceptions. First as a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC), unless you filed as a Type S-corporation (50 or more members), for tax purposes, if you are an individual, you file the same as a Sole Proprietor on Schedule C (profit or loss statement). on your personal Federal income tax return. If there are 2 or more members in the LLC you will file IRS Form 1065, exactly the same as a Partnership. Also, If you are an individual owner with an LLC you are required to retain a Registered Agent. If you are an LLC with 2 or more members you may submit a form to your state so you can act as your own registered agent. Unless you are self insured, it is advisable to retain a registered agent in the event that your LLC is sued.

    FFL's are not issued to Corporations or other business entities. The name on your FFL license certificate may or may not list your company name. The Name in some instances is the same as that of the licensee depending on how the license application was filed. The name is not important and can be amended. What is important is the address. That is the place where ALL over the counter transactions must be made. The only exception is gun shows.
    So your Saying when I get my license, It will Read... Unlimited Inc. And John Q Public? So what about the 4473 then? would that not be necessary when putting gun for personal use and possession?

    There is only ONE licensee per business address. Only that person signs his license with his Licensee/Responsible Person signature and company title. If you have more than one store, each store must have a separate FFL Licensee/Responsible Person since the address of each place of business will be different. The Licensee responsible for multiple stores can be the same person regardless of the business entity.
    So your Saying when I get my license, It will Read... Unlimited Inc. And John Q Public? So what about the 4473 then? would that not be necessary when putting gun for personal use and possession?

    So I could actually Open several stores as long as I amend (designate) a responsible person for each store!? (unlikely, But good Info to have!) Since we started this subject
    Lets say I have 3 stores...I am the actual FFL but the other 2 stores have responsible person's designated,,But In the event of SHTF, Who Is Ultimately Responsible?
    ME? Or that Store's Responsible Person? or Would they come after the Corporation as we discussed above? I apoligize but you confused me a little from what was discussed above lol...I just need to know before I jump that's just way i do business! lol... I'm a Details freak!
    I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. -Thomas Jefferson

  8. #38
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    So what about the 4473 then? would that not be necessary when putting gun for personal use and possession?



    478.125a Personal Firearms Collection- *paraphrased*

    …licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473,…PROVIDED that 1. ..maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory to the personal collection … 2. The licensee recorded in the bound record …the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory… 3. …recorded the firearm in the bound record … when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory to the personal collection … 4. The licensee enters the sale or other disposition … from the personal collection …

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlreadyInUse View Post
    For the most part, yes, it seems that way. I think it would cause quite an uproar of they just suddenly started enforcing it. I would think it would possibly have some sort of phase-in period, but that is just speculation. Not really sure, and don't know that anyone really is at this point. It's just something that you should know is out there, but isn't being enforced at this time. I think it is worth the risk considering what a 07/02 allows. I considered it worth it, and like you I didn't want to wish I had done it from the start and have to re-apply again to get it. It's a personal decision but since I was warned of it, wanted to make sure that you knew as well so you could weigh it against the benefits of an 07/02...
    Quote Originally Posted by AlreadyInUse View Post
    It is something that is 'on the books', but hasn't been enforced. I think I read that it has been around for some 30 years or so.
    No. This is not BS. This is not new. This IS being enforced. Google the name "Blue Bunny Ammunition". The FBI contacted them with an investigation as to their non-compliance with ITAR as an ammunition manufacturer. Long story short, they went out of business.


    Quote Originally Posted by 4tysmith View Post
    Oh I agree 100% I will have those funds In an envelope In my safe like a "rainy day fund" and I So appreciate the heads up on this!!
    Yeah, no. If you manufacture and sell an item, even one item in one calendar year, you are responsible and required to register for ITAR. This isn't a hush-money operation, this is the real deal. Do not take this like a bug smacked on your windshield.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4tysmith View Post
    I'm an LLC, basically a hybrid corporation. Doesn't make much difference as the corporation will be the FFL and you, personally, will not be. All this really means is if you want to buy a personal gun, you'll have to run a 4473 on yourself just like any customer because you don't have the FFL, the corporation does.

    The Blue Letters Is the Quote!..

    So I'm wondering If maybe being a Corporation Is not such a good Idea?..... Or If Is, Why? If I want a Personal gun I have to sell back to myself, Also Maybe this would be better asked to a Business Major lol..
    But Even though I have a Corporation..Could I put the FFL just In my Name?..And have the gun shop be kind of like sub-contracted in side the Sporting goods store which I plan to have along with the Gun part of It?
    Any Thoughts or Input on this would be much appreciated!!
    Corporation is a good idea because it protects your personal assets from business debt. Don't complicate things by talking about subcontracts about stuff. If you have your FFL in your personal name you are personally liable for everything that happens.

    If you want to buy a personal gun using your company's FFL, pay the price of the gun with whatever money(ie, dealer cost) and then transfer to yourself on 4473.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    There is a lot of misinformation on the Internet about ITAR, many are convinced that ALL 07's need it, if in doubt contact a lawyer that specializes in Corprorate Law.
    Actually, yes, ALL 07 FFLs need ITAR unless they fall into very, very specific statuses. Defensive articles have no distinction of being for export or not. If you manufacture a product that is defined as a defensive article according to ITAR, you are required by law to register. It doesn't matter if you sell to civilians or military, you are required to register.

    ATF does not enforce ITAR, as that's up to the State Department to find, then have the FBI investigate. ATF only has the authority to enforce the NFA and GCA.

    Problem with lawyers is this: they can tell you what you want to hear, but if they're wrong YOU still do the jail time. Not them.

    You make suppressors for sale to others, which are defensive articles, you are required to register for ITAR. Period. You may get away with it for a while, but when it catches up with you, I wish you the best.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    Also, If you are an individual owner with an LLC you are required to retain a Registered Agent. If you are an LLC with 2 or more members you may submit a form to your state so you can act as your own registered agent.
    This is state specific. In my state, neither is true. There is simply a RA for each LLC and the RA must be a resident of the state.

    Unless you are self insured, it is advisable to retain a registered agent in the event that your LLC is sued.
    Nothing to do with anything. The RA simply gets mail from the government as to corporate matters. That's it.

    FFL's are not issued to Corporations or other business entities.
    BS. The FFL my company holds is issued to an LLC, which I own. It's issued to a corporation/other business entity.

    There is only ONE licensee per business address.
    Of that type of license. One business premises may hold multiple licenses.
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  11. #41
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    Thanks Tubby45 I appreciate the detail by detail It makes It make sense! And Although It Is much Appreciated about the Registered Agents, Yes I already have that covered I have been Incorporated for 4 years so I'm Familiar with the Corporate Policies UNLESS! It deals Into the "FFL meets Corporation"...lol Wow, Seems I am starting to get it, My Problem I guess Is Iworry about the Little Nit-Picky things Because I Don't like surprise's when It comes to legal Stuff! I do appreciate ALL Input though! I'm still up for phone meeting sometime Tubby45 If that offer still stands

    And I'm sure I will have more questions that can be handled here too! I somewhat have the process started as i have started paperwork On the Premises I will be going for FFL In a few weeks!
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4tysmith View Post
    So your Saying when I get my license, It will Read... Unlimited Inc. And John Q Public? So what about the 4473 then? would that not be necessary when putting gun for personal use and possession?

    So I could actually Open several stores as long as I amend (designate) a responsible person for each store!? (unlikely, But good Info to have!) Since we started this subject
    Lets say I have 3 stores...I am the actual FFL but the other 2 stores have responsible person's designated,,But In the event of SHTF, Who Is Ultimately Responsible?
    ME? Or that Store's Responsible Person? or Would they come after the Corporation as we discussed above? I apoligize but you confused me a little from what was discussed above lol...I just need to know before I jump that's just way i do business! lol... I'm a Details freak!
    Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

    About your FFL License Certificate. ATF publishes a list of all current licensee's. It is public information. Quicker though is to go to > www.fflfinder.com. Scan the list of FFL's. You will see that all have a Business Name. The business name can be any name that you register with your Secretary of State. It can be ACME Guns LLC, Zak's Pawn Shop, Inc., or something like Mike Jones Co. or just plain Joe Doe. There are also a good number of FFL's that have existing businesses. In that case they simply register another name with their state and register what is known as a Fictitious Name. Don't ask me why the call it what they do but this allows an existing company to DO BUSINESS AS (DBA). So, in some instances you will see names like Nuway Concrete Forms, Inc. or even Guido's Barber Shop listed as a licensed FFL.

    The name is generally the same name as whatever you register your company as on your Federal EIN and State Business License, city Business License, etc.

    The FFL License is a paper certificate that has the following fields: Your License Number, Expiration Date, Name (this field does not say company name, only Name). Below Name is Premises Address. This field is in a double line box signifying its importance. Below that is Type of License: example > 01-DEALER IN FIREARMS OTHER THAN DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES.

    Below that is the mailing address. Your mailing address can be different from your Premise address. This address is used for verification purposes when transferring firearms to other FFL's, obtaining firearms from Manufactures and or distributors. Your billing address is not necessarily your premises address. In the case of multiple stores your mailing address might be a billing address or even a distribution warehouse (ATF allows off-site storage of firearms).

    And.. Below that is the line titled: Licensee/Responsible Person Signature. This is the signature and title of an individual to whom the FFL is issued to. It may be the company owner or ANY other responsible person. that person is solely responsible for the business, it operations and its employees.

    Your premises address is the ONLY address where over the counter transactions can be made, e.g. this is the place where a customer fills out ATF Form 4473 and also the place where you will contact NICS for background checks (or another POC in a few states, such as State Police).

    You can read more about instances of multiple stores in the Federal Firearms Regulations Regulations Reference Guide. The point is that each premise address where firearms are sold or traded must have an FFL registered to it.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    This is state specific. In my state, neither is true. There is simply a RA for each LLC and the RA must be a resident of the state.


    Nothing to do with anything. The RA simply gets mail from the government as to corporate matters. That's it.


    BS. The FFL my company holds is issued to an LLC, which I own. It's issued to a corporation/other business entity.


    Of that type of license. One business premises may hold multiple licenses.
    Tubby, My statements are general and normal for MOST states. Michigan is not normal. My post below explains more about the Name on the License. Again in a state such as MI, where the POC is State Police, the NAME on an FFL certificate will be dictated by what and how your company is registered with your State, not BATFE. As far as RA, I concur. The RA is not an insurance company and why I am registered as my own RA in my state.
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  14. #44
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    I'm a newbi and a FFL holder from Pacific Northwest .

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockengruv View Post
    I'm a newbi and a FFL holder from Pacific Northwest .
    Welcome to DC and to the FFL Forum
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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