Register lower as pistol

This is a discussion on Register lower as pistol within the FFL Dealer Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I received this FFL transfer request and am not sure how to handle it. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. "This is for a factory ...

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Thread: Register lower as pistol

  1. #1
    New Member Array gm319's Avatar
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    Register lower as pistol

    I received this FFL transfer request and am not sure how to handle it. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

    "This is for a factory new Noveske lower to be registered as pistol. Is this a standard procedure for you to register them as pistol and not rifle/firearm? The reason I request this is I will have a short barrel and do not want SBR/NFA avenue. It will never have a buttstock installed."

    The seller says he considers it a rifle lower, stripped.....

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Taurahe's Avatar
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    I think he wants to make one of these.....Rock River Arms: LAR-15 Pistols / 5.56/.223
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  4. #3
    Member Array Bstock87's Avatar
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    If it's a stripped lower it should be transferred as "other" not pistol or rifle since it is neither at the point of transfer.
    HotGuns and atctimmy like this.

  5. #4
    Ex Member Array myrkr's Avatar
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    Like Bstock said you can transfer a new (i.e. never been transferred as a rifle) lower receiver as "other" and then assemble it as a pistol, but if "rifle" was checked off, it would be violating the NFA provision about chopping down rifles. Likewise if it truly is a rifle's stripped lower receiver it would have the same effect.

    http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations...ing-2011-4.pdf

    Here's an ATF ruling from their website that says on the third page:

    Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.
    I'm no expert but you should probably make sure it wasn't ever assembled as a rifle.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myrkr View Post
    I'm no expert but you should probably make sure it wasn't ever assembled as a rifle.
    Doesn't matter. The ATF finally agreed with the TC v US Supreme Court Case which ruled that you can swap a frame or receiver back and forth between a rifle and a pistol configuration as long as the short barrel and buttstock were not attached to the frame/receiver at the same time. Constructive possession of an SBR is crap. The ATF finally got with the 90s and put a letter out in 2012. I'll have to look a bit on my computer to see when. I'm pretty sure I saved it.
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  7. #6
    Ex Member Array myrkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Doesn't matter. The ATF finally agreed with the TC v US Supreme Court Case which ruled that you can swap a frame or receiver back and forth between a rifle and a pistol configuration as long as the short barrel and buttstock were not attached to the frame/receiver at the same time. Constructive possession of an SBR is crap. The ATF finally got with the 90s and put a letter out in 2012. I'll have to look a bit on my computer to see when. I'm pretty sure I saved it.
    I would love to see that letter because I've been walking on eggshells with my Contender and Encore lol. The latest thing I could find regarding it was in the link I posted above but that was dated 2011 so they very well could have changed their opinion since then. And I wholeheartedly agree on the "constructive possesion." With their logic, if you carry a gun through a hardware store, you could theoretically be charged with "constructive possesion" of a silencer, a destructive device, an SBR/SBS, a zip gun where they aren't allowed, etc. Guilty until proven innocent is their motto.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    There is no constructive possession with SBR or SBS. Only with MG and suppressors. The TC v US case determined that. The ATF used that as their argument point and the SCOTUS said no to them and they lost.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  9. #8
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    Tubby is correct.

    "Constructive possession" was a word invented by the ATF that basically stated if you could do it then you were guilty. Since it couldn't be proved that just because one could make an SBR from a pistol lower or a short rifle upper, the Supreme Court throttled back the ATF.

    No it is no longer an issue and it is how the Thompson Center Encore and the Contender can be both a rifle or a pistol depending on the configuration. The thing is, if you have a barrel of less than 16" on a frame that has a stock, you had better have Form 4 for the SBR or you can get your tail in a serious crack with the ATF.
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  10. #9
    Ex Member Array myrkr's Avatar
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    Hotguns, Tubby, that is interesting information right there. Still though does anyone have a letter or some other documentation about this? The only reason I continue to ask is the pdf I linked is dated 2011, 9 years after US v. Thompson Center Arms case. Furthermore, they don't mention constructive possesion in the portion I quoted, only that a weapon made from a rifle (like an AR pistol made from what was once a rifle receiver) is still illegal, but a weapon originally designed to be either a pistol or a rifle is exempt. They used the phrase "produced only as a rifle" to stay in line with the TC decision. Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread but these things interest me. Again correct me if I'm wrong, I just wanna get down to the bottom of this mountain of crap lol

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I thought I had the letter regarding ARs on my computer but I don't seem to have any luck finding it. I pulled it off of ARFCOM a while back when one of the members wrote in to the ATF.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bstock87 View Post
    If it's a stripped lower it should be transferred as "other" not pistol or rifle since it is neither at the point of transfer.
    This.

    I bought a Spikes lower for a pistol build, and the guy completing the Form 4473 refused to put 'Pistol' on the form. He insisted on using the word 'Other.'

    I get it.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    That's because a pistol has a specific meaning and definition according to 27 CFR 478.11. If it doesn't match that exact description, then it's not a pistol.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    I know recently the shop I work at just went online with our 4473's (HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY NO MORE PAPER and bad handwriting), IIRC there is a drop down menu on the 4473's and you may select "RECIEVER". In the future maybe find a shop that does their 4473's online and request that it be transferred as a reciever.
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  15. #14
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    You only have three types of firearms listed on the 4473.

    One block is for Handgun. One block is for Long Gun. The last block is for "Other Firearm".

    The last block has in parenthesis, (frame, receiver,etc.) listed. It then referred to question 18 for instructions for those that are unsure.

    In this case, you would list "other" because it is a receiver. What the buyer does with it is no concern of yours.

    Its not a rifle lower until he makes it one. Its not a pistol lower until he makes it one. Right now, its just a receiver. The proper way to list is by checking the "other" box.
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