Has anyone got an FFL without attorney assistance?

This is a discussion on Has anyone got an FFL without attorney assistance? within the FFL Dealer Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I am thinking about getting an FFL by filling out the paperwork on my own. I am somewhat familiar with applications ect. and I found ...

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Thread: Has anyone got an FFL without attorney assistance?

  1. #1
    Member Array Patriotj2003's Avatar
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    Has anyone got an FFL without attorney assistance?

    I am thinking about getting an FFL by filling out the paperwork on my own. I am somewhat familiar with applications ect. and I found a $20 instruction package. I contacted a good attorney and he charges $1600

    Has anyone had success on their own?
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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array IndianaSig's Avatar
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    You don't need an attorney to apply for a FFL. However, coming from one who owned and operated a gun store for 26 years, I can tell you that a good 95% of those who apply have no business (figuratively and literally) doing so. If you are not well capitalized (money you have on your own, not a loan), do not have a sound understanding of how to operate a business (not a gun business....just business in general), and if you do not plan to devote 100% of your time to it, you're wasting your time and money. The days of the kitchen table ffl are long over. Those applying today must understand that it's a full-time undertaking. Such licenses are not shall issue. They are discretionary and the feds are looking for those who have money and can engage in a firearms business. If you have done this due diligence, and determined that I just described you, then full speed ahead.

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    I would rather have a personal, trusting relation with my LGS than go to the trouble & expose myself to the additional scrutiny of holding a "household" FFL. If that costs me 15% more $ on purchases, IMHO, it's WORTH it. I want to stay as far under the Federal Radar as possible.
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    You absolutely do not need an attorney to obtain an FFL. paying for ANY "How To Kit" for FFL application instruction is a total waste of time and money. All of the information you need is available Free from www.atf.gov.

    You do need a sound business plan. You can obtain some guidelines on-line from SBA that may be helpful to you. Consulting with an accountant and a tax advisor would make some sense.

    As mentioned, being well capitalized and versed in operating a retail business is actually of more importance than knowledge of firearms.
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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    A 5th grade student could properly fill out the FFL application. It's that easy. You don't need a stupid kit and you don't need an attorney. Thousands of FFLs have done it without any of that nonsense.
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  7. #6
    VIP Member Array NONAME762's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaSig View Post
    You don't need an attorney to apply for a FFL. However, coming from one who owned and operated a gun store for 26 years, I can tell you that a good 95% of those who apply have no business (figuratively and literally) doing so. If you are not well capitalized (money you have on your own, not a loan), do not have a sound understanding of how to operate a business (not a gun business....just business in general), and if you do not plan to devote 100% of your time to it, you're wasting your time and money. The days of the kitchen table ffl are long over. Those applying today must understand that it's a full-time undertaking. Such licenses are not shall issue. They are discretionary and the feds are looking for those who have money and can engage in a firearms business. If you have done this due diligence, and determined that I just described you, then full speed ahead.
    I was one of those kitchen table guys way way back in the late 80s. Back then I'm pretty sure the FFL was $30 for 4 years.
    I never bought or sold a single firearm but I sure had a lot of fun looking at the way cool catalogs and flyers I received ALL THE TIME!!! I could be mistaken but I think an FFL now runs $3000 instead of $30 as the ATF in their effort to be fair and just raised their fees to put little guys like me outta business. OTOH if you go for the Curios and Relics FFL that's still $30 for 4 years.

    To answer the OP's question I just filled out the form(s) and sent it in w/my $30 and that was it. Just be advised if you go thru with it NEVER SIGN your name to your FFL actual as companies you would do business with REQUIRE an original signature.

    Make a bunch of copies of your FFL and sign them as you need to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NONAME762 View Post
    I was one of those kitchen table guys way way back in the late 80s. Back then I'm pretty sure the FFL was $30 for 4 years.
    I never bought or sold a single firearm but I sure had a lot of fun looking at the way cool catalogs and flyers I received ALL THE TIME!!! I could be mistaken but I think an FFL now runs $3000 instead of $30 as the ATF in their effort to be fair and just raised their fees to put little guys like me outta business. OTOH if you go for the Curios and Relics FFL that's still $30 for 4 years.

    To answer the OP's question I just filled out the form(s) and sent it in w/my $30 and that was it. Just be advised if you go thru with it NEVER SIGN your name to your FFL actual as companies you would do business with REQUIRE an original signature.

    Make a bunch of copies of your FFL and sign them as you need to.
    Please get your facts straight before posting.

    First, ATF is not out to get you. Only non qualifying applicants are denied licenses. The reason for denial usually stems from state or local authority, not the Federal government.

    There are over 300,000 Collector and Relic (C&R) licensee's. The fee is $30.00 for 3 years.

    There were more FFL licensees granted in 2012-13 than in 2010-2011. The number of 01, 02 and 07 licensees is just under 45,000 where it was about 43,000 at the end of 2012.

    The Fee for an 01 FFL Dealer or 02 Pawn application is $200.00 for the first 3 years and $90.00 for renewal every three years thereafter.
    The fee for an 07 or 08 Manufacturer or Importer application is $150 and $150.00 for a 3 year renewal thereafter.
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    Member Array DeltaFirearms's Avatar
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    You don't need an attorney, but I would recommend a business attorney to draft up your articles of incorporation for your gun shop. You need a business plan before even thinking about getting into this business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaFirearms View Post
    You don't need an attorney, but I would recommend a business attorney to draft up your articles of incorporation for your gun shop. You need a business plan before even thinking about getting into this business.
    The majority of those who obtain an FFL are either sole proprietors or partnerships. For these business structures, there are no articles of incorporation. For LLC's, type S corps and corporations articles of incorporation are filed with the Secretary of State you incorporate in.

    Even Articles of Incorporation are standard legal forms that can be filed without an attorney.

    There are companies such as Legal Zoom who are not attorneys but who routinely set up LLC's and Type S corporations. They will draft your articles, obtain your EIN and file all necessary paperwork with your state for about $150.00.

    Most states will also require a registered agent if you form an LLC or other type of incorporation. Contrary to popular belief, you do not need an independent registered agent. You can file to self certify your LLC or corporation as its own registered agent. A registered agent is not an attorney. They do nothing but intercept any initial service of an intent to sue. They will forward the notice to a designated member but will not provide any legal assistance. Should you receive notice, of course, contact legal counsel.
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    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    Please get your facts straight before posting.
    Kinda rude way to start off a post to someone that's trying to be helpful IMO.
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    Member Array DeltaFirearms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    The majority of those who obtain an FFL are either sole proprietors or partnerships. For these business structures, there are no articles of incorporation. For LLC's, type S corps and corporations articles of incorporation are filed with the Secretary of State you incorporate in.

    Even Articles of Incorporation are standard legal forms that can be filed without an attorney.

    There are companies such as Legal Zoom who are not attorneys but who routinely set up LLC's and Type S corporations. They will draft your articles, obtain your EIN and file all necessary paperwork with your state for about $150.00.

    Most states will also require a registered agent if you form an LLC or other type of incorporation. Contrary to popular belief, you do not need an independent registered agent. You can file to self certify your LLC or corporation as its own registered agent. A registered agent is not an attorney. They do nothing but intercept any initial service of an intent to sue. They will forward the notice to a designated member but will not provide any legal assistance. Should you receive notice, of course, contact legal counsel.
    Yep, but I would never recommend getting a FFL for a sole proprietorship. I would always recommend starting as a LLC, or Corporation. You should never allow your personal assets to be mixed in with your business.
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    Distinguished Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I have never needed a lawyer to get a FFL and Ive had three over the years. I have never sold guns but made and sold cast bullets. The risk is very low, as I did not actually do any reloading. I only provided the bullets to reloaders. What ended that is lead bullets have fallen out of favor here. Rental ranges no longer use any exposed lead. I sold my equipment to a family in Nev. Who make bullets for two local PDs and a few rental ranges. I did enjoy being able to buy guns through the mail tho. DR
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    [QUOTE=SIGP250;2875132]Please get your facts straight before posting.

    First, ATF is not out to get you. [/QUOTE=SIG250] [QUOTE=NONAME762]Oh Really?? Ask Randy Weaver about that Bubba-I'd bet he's got a different take on the ATF. Hells bells...ask old David Koresh about ATF... And as far as straight facts go-I was going with 27 year old info. [/QUOTE=NONAME762]....
    Quote Originally Posted by SIG250
    Only non qualifying applicants are denied licenses. The reason for denial usually stems from state or local authority, not the Federal government.

    There are over 300,000 Collector and Relic (C&R) licensee's. The fee is $30.00 for 3 years.

    There were more FFL licensees granted in 2012-13 than in 2010-2011. The number of 01, 02 and 07 licensees is just under 45,000 where it was about 43,000 at the end of 2012.

    The Fee for an 01 FFL Dealer or 02 Pawn application is $200.00 for the first 3 years and $90.00 for renewal every three years thereafter.
    The fee for an 07 or 08 Manufacturer or Importer application is $150 and $150.00 for a 3 year renewal thereafter.
    Grrrrrr...Ask Randy Weaver how ATF is at getting along with people. Or ask David Koresh or Janet BBQ Reno. ATF under Janet Reno killed something like 86 people including little kids to protect those same kids from allegations of child abuse (NEVER PROVEN). ATF killed 86 folks by BURNING THEM ALIVE.
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    Firing a suppressed is on my Bucket List.

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    VIP Member Array NONAME762's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Kinda rude way to start off a post to someone that's trying to be helpful IMO.
    Thank you Gotta Man.

    If I was made President tomorrow the second thing I'd do is FIRE every single ATF employee from the top down and BLACKBALL ALL OF THEM WORLD WIDE from LE duties. They'd be lucky to get jobs as Crossing Guards for school kids.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Firing a suppressed is on my Bucket List.

    I'm just a spoke in the wheel but not a big deal.

    America...a Constitutional Republic. NOT a democracy as the liberals would have us believe.

  16. #15
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    I got an FFL without an attorney.

    With the availability of info on the net, its not hard to do. Don't be intimidated by companies that claim you need their help to get one.

    If you can read, you can fill out an application. Every single question is described on the back of the form if one is in doubt. The best research you can do comes directly from the ATF website. Most people, although well meaning, don't have a clue of what they are talking about if they haven't went through the process so there is a lot of bad info out there.

    When the ATF checks you, they will check state law, local law, and they will want proof that you intend to engage in a business. If you qualify in those areas, you'll be good to go. The examiner branch is different from the field division branch that stomps cats, shoots dogs and burns your house down. The Examiners aren't even armed and they really are helpful. They want you to get an FFL because you are their job security. I have never had a negative experience with one yet.

    In my state you can do an LLC online in about 5 minutes. It cost 45 bucks. Not hard to do.
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