Using an FFL 03 question. New law?

This is a discussion on Using an FFL 03 question. New law? within the FFL Dealer Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I hope this is OK here. I didn't notice 03 FFL's mentioned in the description. I have an FFL 03, also called a C&R. Today ...

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Thread: Using an FFL 03 question. New law?

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Using an FFL 03 question. New law?

    I hope this is OK here. I didn't notice 03 FFL's mentioned in the description.

    I have an FFL 03, also called a C&R.
    Today I visited one of my usual haunts and picked out a nice Mossberg .22 that was C&R eligible.
    I took the rifle up to the counter, we agreed on a price, then I told the (new) manager I had a C&R on file. He had a guy look it up on the computer, then slid me the usual 4473 paperwork for purchasing a new firearm.
    I told him I didn't need to fill out the paperwork as I had a license on file with them and mentioned that I had bought about a dozen firearms from them in the past year from the owner, never filling out the paperwork. He said I still needed to fill it out even though they did not need to phone it in That they needed something "on file" as to who they sold it to.

    Did something new get passed in the last couple months that I don't know about? Don't they simply enter my name and license # in their book like I do mine for the purchase? I've purchased probably 30 C&R guns from various local shops and never had to fill out the 4473 paperwork once. Should I have something from them other than their license to enter to enter in my bound book?

    Thanks for any clarification.

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    Nope.

    He could have simply logged it out to you.

    He either didn't know what he was talking about or he didn't care.
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    Distinguished Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply, HG.
    That's what I was thinking, that he simply didn't know. It was like half covering his you know what asking me to fill out the 4473, but then not asking for my license or phoning it in told me he really didn't know what he was doing. Unless something had changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    I hope this is OK here. I didn't notice 03 FFL's mentioned in the description.

    I have an FFL 03, also called a C&R.
    Today I visited one of my usual haunts and picked out a nice Mossberg .22 that was C&R eligible.
    I took the rifle up to the counter, we agreed on a price, then I told the (new) manager I had a C&R on file. He had a guy look it up on the computer, then slid me the usual 4473 paperwork for purchasing a new firearm.
    I told him I didn't need to fill out the paperwork as I had a license on file with them and mentioned that I had bought about a dozen firearms from them in the past year from the owner, never filling out the paperwork. He said I still needed to fill it out even though they did not need to phone it in That they needed something "on file" as to who they sold it to.

    Did something new get passed in the last couple months that I don't know about? Don't they simply enter my name and license # in their book like I do mine for the purchase? I've purchased probably 30 C&R guns from various local shops and never had to fill out the 4473 paperwork once. Should I have something from them other than their license to enter to enter in my bound book?

    Thanks for any clarification.
    The dealer has no way of looking up your C&R because ATF does not publish a list of C&R licensee's so if he said he did, that's B.S.

    The guy was probably not the store's FFL, just an employee. He may or may not have had access to the 60 page list of C&R eligible firearms. He might have been busy or ignorant. Either way, It is his right as a dealer to error on the side of caution by making you fill out ATF form 4473 even if not required.

    As a C&R, you know you don't need to fill out form 4473 because you are not a dealer. You only need to record your acquisition in a bound book. The FFL also needs to record the disposition of what he sells in his bound book.

    Was the .22 Mossberg a WWII training rifle? Was it ever actually issued to military? Was it over 50 year old? Do you or did he have any C&R documentation of the rifle's eligibility?

    If he didn't know, it's his call as to weather he has you fill out the 4473, just as he has the right to not sell it to you at all.

    BTY, All licensee's including C&R's are welcome to this forum section. In fact any non licensee that has a question or comment pertaining to C&R or any FFL category is welcome here.
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    Distinguished Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    The dealer has no way of looking up your C&R because ATF does not publish a list of C&R licensee's so if he said he did, that's B.S.

    He had someone look up my name in their software, not the ATF'S website. Sorry for the confusion.

    The guy was probably not the store's FFL, just an employee. He may or may not have had access to the 60 page list of C&R eligible firearms. He might have been busy or ignorant. Either way, It is his right as a dealer to error on the side of caution by making you fill out ATF form 4473 even if not required.

    Yes. It was the way he had me fill out the paperwork saying he needed it to record the sale, but did not phone it in that I questioned. If he had wanted to error on the side of caution he would have phoned it in. In which case we would have been squabbling over the five bucks they charge, lol. Actually, at that point I would have come back the following day when the owners were there.

    As a C&R, you know you don't need to fill out form 4473 because you are not a dealer. You only need to record your acquisition in a bound book. The FFL also needs to record the disposition of what he sells in his bound book.

    Was the .22 Mossberg a WWII training rifle? Was it ever actually issued to military? Was it over 50 year old? Do you or did he have any C&R documentation of the rifle's eligibility?

    Yes it was a training rifle.
    I have no idea if it was actually issued. Who does?
    Yes it was over 50 years old.
    I did not bring any documentation. I didn't even know it would be there. There is list of eligible firearms online. I've had shops access the ATF's website before when they were not sure. Actually, one time I was in a shop making a purchase when they were being audited. The agent looked it up on his smart phone for the new shop owner.


    If he didn't know, it's his call as to weather he has you fill out the 4473, just as he has the right to not sell it to you at all.

    BTY, All licensee's including C&R's are welcome to this forum section. In fact any non licensee that has a question or comment pertaining to C&R or any FFL category is welcome here.
    Thanks for the reply.
    I know some FFL 01's are quirky about dealing with C&R's. You are right. There is no way to look it up. Although to put the shoe on the other foot, for all I know a dealer could have had his license revoked the week before and might be unloading inventory regardless.
    It was simply an odd situation I haven't been in before. Not to mention I did not have my glasses and was filling out the 4473 from memory

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    The Form ATF 4473 has all the information needed for later posting in a bound book so you might agree that it sort of makes sense for a dealer to use that form even if he did not call it in to NICS. Since the dealer probably has multiple sales on any given day, he would logically post entries in batch to his bound book at the close of business or the next day. It probably just made record keeping easier for him.

    So, I don't think he ignored your C&R and he did have a record of you in his DB. Most stores now seem to keep customer records weather it's a gun shop or Home Depot.

    Not all, but most WWII rifles issued to the military prior to 1946 will be marked as such. It will look similar to engraved markings on imported guns. There were some civilian models made during that era that have no markings except a serial number. During the Korean conflict, US manufactures were scrambling to produce. They would often take parts from civilian models to build for the military. Some parts were WWII surplus, civilian or new. For this reason, it is not that unusual to see more than one serial number on a firearm. It is also fairly common to find boxed models with serial numbers on the box that don't match what's on the firearm. For that reason, always record the serial number on the gun, not the box.

    Anyhow, I hope you enjoy your rifle!
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    Distinguished Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    Yeah, I've got one shop that always asks me for another copy of my license when I buy something, so I guess that's how he keeps his daily records.
    Maybe they have changed the way they are keeping records there now. I'll find out when I go back anyway.

    It's marked US Property, so it was designated a trainer, but like I said, how do you really know if it was really issued as such? All this issued, as issued, non-issued... IMO is just anybody's best guess based on condition. So going by the patina and condition on this one I'll call it issued, lol.

    And thanks! I will enjoy it!

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    We just logged the gun out to them in the book with their information and a copy of their C+R "on file" in the office.
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    Did you hand sign toyr C&R in front of him in order for his to have you in his Files? That's all that is needed. Seems he either didn't know what to do, or he didn't wish to enter you into his database, or have you on file as a C&R.
    As a FYI, the store I work at KTP in Maine, always deals with C&R s..We have em listed on file, and if they wish to purchase a C&R gun, we look you up, make sure all is well, and then finalize the sale. No big deal in my mind..
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    Did you hand sign toyr C&R in front of him in order for his to have you in his Files? That's all that is needed. Seems he either didn't know what to do, or he didn't wish to enter you into his database, or have you on file as a C&R.
    As a FYI, the store I work at KTP in Maine, always deals with C&R s..We have em listed on file, and if they wish to purchase a C&R gun, we look you up, make sure all is well, and then finalize the sale. No big deal in my mind..
    Not him, Class, but one of the owners. I'm not sure what they did with it, but I've never had to produce it again. Anymore than the online vendors who have me on file.
    And he never asked me for a copy of my FFL 03 license anyway. Filling out the 4473 caught me offguard, which lead to this thread.

    Granted, an 03 isn't an 01, but when I traded in an SKS on something in that shop all I did was log it out with their name and license #. I thought that was standard across the board, which the posts above lead me to think it is and he might not have been too sure what he was doing.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    When we get a C&R holder, we ask for their ID or their copy of the C&R. It's inserted into the data base, and from then on, the customer tells us he is a C&R, we look it up, if valid, with his Picture ID, we process it just like a 01. If the gun isn't on the C&R List, it's processed as a 4473
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    I tend not to deal with C&Rs because it's easy to fake a piece of paper, and you can't look it up on the EZCheck. Though I've accepted it a few times for some nagants, and all I do is take a copy of their FFL, and log it out of my books.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaFirearms View Post
    I tend not to deal with C&Rs because it's easy to fake a piece of paper, and you can't look it up on the EZCheck. Though I've accepted it a few times for some nagants, and all I do is take a copy of their FFL, and log it out of my books.
    I have had the How to deal with C&R licensee's discussion with ATF Industry Operations on more than one occasion. ATF knows who is licensed as C&R's but dealers don't. I have not been given an answer that I am entirely comfortable with. All they tell me is to record the transaction in my BB as I would any other transaction except If the firearm is C&R eligible no background check is required. They tell me that it is really up to me weather I want to accept their C&R or not. Normally I will unless I can't determine C&R eligibility certainty.
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    To update: I was at that gun shop yesterday and the owner came up to me and said the manager had approached him about our transaction. He told me that their new manager had managed two gun shops before (none that I've been to) and that was how they did it in those shops, had the 03 holder fill out the 4473 but not phone it in. The owner said he told him that he didn't have to do that in their shop.

    And I agree, there should be some way to verify an 03 online.
    I am curious though how many 01 dealers verify an 01 before shipping a firearm to that dealer? After all, it's just a piece of paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    To update: I was at that gun shop yesterday and the owner came up to me and said the manager had approached him about our transaction. He told me that their new manager had managed two gun shops before (none that I've been to) and that was how they did it in those shops, had the 03 holder fill out the 4473 but not phone it in. The owner said he told him that he didn't have to do that in their shop.

    And I agree, there should be some way to verify an 03 online.
    I am curious though how many 01 dealers verify an 01 before shipping a firearm to that dealer? After all, it's just a piece of paper.
    Federal law carries stiff penalties for FFL's who do not comply with regulations. Licensed dealers are generally aware of the responsibilities they have accepted. Before a transfer from one FFL to another or from a manufacturer or distributor can take place, FFL holders are required by law to have a current copy of the FFL's license certificate before they ship.

    Many FFL's keep a database of FFL's. If no license is on file, the FFL will request a copy. Once received, there are two ways to verify the validity of a licensee.
    1.) EZ-Check (Available only to FFL's who have registered to use this on-line license look-up).
    2.) BATFE publishes a monthly listing of all current FFL's. It is available in XLS or TXT format. It is public record that anyone can access.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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