Question re: Dealers giving copies of their licenses to non-dealers for shipping

Question re: Dealers giving copies of their licenses to non-dealers for shipping

This is a discussion on Question re: Dealers giving copies of their licenses to non-dealers for shipping within the FFL Dealer Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I have a deal going where an out of state buyer has agreed to purchase a rifle from me and has given me his FFL ...

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Thread: Question re: Dealers giving copies of their licenses to non-dealers for shipping

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    74 [OP]
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    Question re: Dealers giving copies of their licenses to non-dealers for shipping

    I have a deal going where an out of state buyer has agreed to purchase a rifle from me and has given me his FFL info.

    This dealer is claiming that the ATF has requested that "dealers no longer provide a copy of the dealers license to non dealers."

    I have seen no discussion of this anywhere. I know it is legal for individuals to ship rifles via the USPS; what if they ask to verify the shipment is to an 01 FFL? I would like to have a copy of it in hand to show someone, just in case.

    Is there any truth to this claim or is this guy just blowing smoke up my xxx ? Local ATF offices are closed and HQ says I have to talk to the local office- ie, they're not much help either.

    Thanks for any info.


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    This dealer is claiming that the ATF has requested that "dealers no longer provide a copy of the dealers license to non dealers."
    He's not blowing smoke, that is a fact due to abuses.

    A guy gets his dealers FFL and he makes a copy of it. Then he just orders stuff off the net, provides a copy of the FFL and has it sent to himself. Its happened and its illegal.

    I'll give any dealer a copy but I will not give a customer a copy. I've lost a few prospective customers over the years like that, but if they cant see why, then I was better off without them anyway.

    The USPS doesn't care and if they want to verify and FFL, they'll ask the FFL to provide it, not the customer.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    74 [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post

    A guy gets his dealers FFL and he makes a copy of it. Then he just orders stuff off the net, provides a copy of the FFL and has it sent to himself. Its happened and its illegal.
    Do you mean he modifies/forges his own address on the copy? Otherwise- the addresses aren't the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 74 View Post
    Do you mean he modifies/forges his own address on the copy? Otherwise- the addresses aren't the same.
    I was going to ask the same thing.
    And since FFL 01's can be viewed online, I think that's laziness on the part of the shipper not to verify the address he is sending to corresponds with the license.

    But my question is why would a shipper need a copy of the receiving FFL's license unless he has a license himself and wants to log in the transfer as such?
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    Doesn't matter. Your billing address and shipping address can be different and most companys wouldn't catch it anyway.

    There have been prosecutions for people forging FFL's or modifying ones that they get. Something that the ATF and the DOJ takes a very dim view of.

    It's one of the reasons that the ATF advises not giving a copy to a customer. Is something can be abused, someone, somewhere will abuse it.
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    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    But my question is why would a shipper need a copy of the receiving FFL's license unless he has a license himself and wants to log in the transfer as such?
    If they are shipping a gun, then they probably have an FFL and they do need to log it out. To log it out they need the FFL#.
    Lots of companys get a copy through FAX or Email and they keep it on file. That way they don't have to spend time on it in the future. I've got a stack of them from all over the country.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    74 [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Doesn't matter. Your billing address and shipping address can be different and most companys wouldn't catch it anyway.
    I have been given other licenses before, and there is a field for physical ship-to address where the business receives shipments. That would have to be changed.

    I have since received a copy of an advisory letter from the ATF- basically it is referring to a scam where purchasers are being fooled. The situation I am facing is not like this- I am trying to send this guy a gun properly, not scam a buyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    If they are shipping a gun, then they probably have an FFL and they do need to log it out. To log it out they need the FFL#.
    Lots of companys get a copy through FAX or Email and they keep it on file. That way they don't have to spend time on it in the future. I've got a stack of them from all over the country.
    I've received several modern guns where the shipper asked me if my FFL would accept the gun from a non-FFL with just a copy of their license. The shipper obviously didn't have an FFL, so I see no reason they need the receiving FFL's license.

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    I have since received a copy of an advisory letter from the ATF- basically it is referring to a scam where purchasers are being fooled. The situation I am facing is not like this- I am trying to send this guy a gun properly, not scam a buyer
    I don't doubt that, but you are going to have a hard time getting a copy of an FFL from a dealer because they have been advised not to do it. Its not worth the risk.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    I've received several modern guns where the shipper asked me if my FFL would accept the gun from a non-FFL with just a copy of their license. The shipper obviously didn't have an FFL, so I see no reason they need the receiving FFL's license.
    Its not illegal to ship a gun to an FFL. Most just want to know that what they are doing is shipping to a bonafide FFL.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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    74 [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    , so I see no reason they need the receiving FFL's license.
    My reason is thus:

    According to the info on the USPS website, you are not to put any info on the package indicating there is a firearm inside.

    So, I waltz in to the PO with a box- on it is a person's name and the business's street address, only. I tell the clerk it is a rifle and the recipient is an FFL. How are they supposed to know I'm telling the truth? How can I verify that I am actually doing what I say I am?

    If I have a copy of the license, I can show them and verify the recipient's info.

    This is the first time I will ship a long gun myself- all other sales have been handguns gieven to my dealer to ship out. I am just anticipating issues and how to deal with them if they arise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Its not illegal to ship a gun to an FFL. Most just want to know that what they are doing is shipping to a bonafide FFL.
    Ah, I misunderstood the OP's first post.
    When he said he received the FFL's "info" I took that to mean the license.

    I've received emails containing an FFL license that I was supposed to ship to and I simply called and Googled the FFL to verify. I certainly wouldn't ship if all I had was the buyer giving me the shipping address.

    So yes, the OP should verify the FFL, but the best way of doing that is for the FFL to send him a copy of his license. Interesting circumstance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    Ah, I misunderstood the OP's first post.
    When he said he received the FFL's "info" I took that to mean the license.

    I've received emails containing an FFL license that I was supposed to ship to and I simply called and Googled the FFL to verify. I certainly wouldn't ship if all I had was the buyer giving me the shipping address.

    So yes, the OP should verify the FFL, but the best way of doing that is for the FFL to send him a copy of his license. Interesting circumstance.
    Right- the buyer told me the guy's name, company name and email/phone.

    I looked the FFL up in the ATF and FFL registry lists and knew he was legit- as I mentioned, I primarily just want to pre-empt any problems at the post office.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 74 View Post
    Right- the buyer told me the guy's name, company name and email/phone.

    I looked the FFL up in the ATF and FFL registry lists and knew he was legit- as I mentioned, I primarily just want to pre-empt any problems at the post office.
    Whatever you do, make sure his FFL you ship to accepts from a non-licensed (no ffl) person. Also check to ensure the state you are shipping to allows non-ffl's to ship to their ffl. Massachusetts is one such state that requires all out of state transfers to be shipped to an ffl from an ffl.

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    Any FFL Dealer who gives a copy of his licensee certificate to a non-dealer must be ignorant, stupid or both. Customers should Not receive copies from dealers for purposes of sending to transferees or for any other purpose. It is the responsibility of the FFL to send a copy of his license to another FFL. He should not pass off this duty to his customer.

    Any customer wishing to verify the validity of any FFL (except 03 C&R licensees) has public access to his contact information and license status. This can be done by visiting https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms...y/listing-FFLs
    HotGuns and Christopher67 like this.
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