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Gun Store Etiquette

This is a discussion on Gun Store Etiquette within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis I contacted DPMS personally in regards to shooting steel case ammo and they strongly advised against it. Steel on steel is ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array Screamin'Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    I contacted DPMS personally in regards to shooting steel case ammo and they strongly advised against it. Steel on steel is bad and will shorten the life of the barrel.
    +1

    If you put two pieces of the same type of material next to each other, they are going to wear on each other a lot. If you put two pieces of differing material together, the softer material is going to conform to the harder material with very little effort. Steel + Steel = Materials fighting each other = Excessive Wear. Steel + Brass = Cartridge conforming to chamber = Normal "polishing."

    Chrome is chemically different and harder than steel, that is why it is used as a plating over steel. It's not always just for its "bling" properties. :)
    Last edited by Screamin'Eagle; March 24th, 2010 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    I would have said something like "Hey I own that same rifle!" It would most likely spark questions as the guy now knows about someone with a possible real world opinion about it.

    You could also express your dislike of the wolf ammo. It's not telling anyone they are wrong but it will deterr the guy from buying crappy ammo
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    I would have said something like "Hey I own that same rifle!" It would most likely spark questions as the guy now knows about someone with a possible real world opinion about it.

    You could also express your dislike of the wolf ammo. It's not telling anyone they are wrong but it will deterr the guy from buying crappy ammo


    It just really peed me off that either the sales clerk was that ignorant of the rifle and it's functions or he was knowingly taking advantage of a new gun owner.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    It just really peed me off that either the sales clerk was that ignorant of the rifle and it's functions or he was knowingly taking advantage of a new gun owner.
    I feel your pain.... it is really difficult sometimes... If all else fails I stand there without saying a word but with a look of "you can't be serious" on my face in hopes the poor fool notices before handing over cash.... maybe give a small cough or something to draw attention...
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  5. #20
    Member Array 2ndAmend's Avatar
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    OFF TOPIC! Sorry

    This happens everywhere. I have a number of tattoos (about 12), when my kid brother turned 18 I took him to get his first. We walked into the shop looked around and my brother decided he wanted a tattoo just like mine (our last name down my rib cage). I agreed (I was paying) and we asked the artist how much it was going to cost, mind you I have the same work, and he told us it was going to be like $200. I very politely told him he was "smoking crack" and we left drove about 15 min down the road and he got his fist tat for $100.

    ON TOPIC!

    I don’t mind helping people out that are getting "hosed". If I see or hear something that I know is a lie or just bad business then I am going to open my mouth. With the economy the way it is people don’t need to be losing money on bad deals. As for the research not everyone is that intuitive. JMO
    A good friend will come bail you out of jail...But a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn we screwed up".

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array Ring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    When the counter guy walked away for a moment I told the guy it would not be wise to shoot the steel cased wolf because the DPMS did not have a chrome lined chamber.


    Steel on steel is bad and will shorten the life of the barrel.
    how about customers giving bad info?.... chrome lined chamber or not any good gun or even mediocre gun will shoot wolf fine.
    and all new wolf, "not classic" has the poly coated case

    and you cant ware out a "chamber"

    the only problems you can run into is if you shoot a few hundred wold, then swap to brass with out cleaning the gun, the the steel case dosent seal as well as the brass, and you will get a bit more carbon buildup in the chamber... and if you swap to brass, it can lead to a stuck case...

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    wolf is really dirty stuff. I will not subject my rifles to it nor would I suggest using it for any other rifle.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ring View Post
    how about customers giving bad info?.... chrome lined chamber or not any good gun or even mediocre gun will shoot wolf fine.
    and all new wolf, "not classic" has the poly coated case

    and you cant ware out a "chamber"

    the only problems you can run into is if you shoot a few hundred wold, then swap to brass with out cleaning the gun, the the steel case dosent seal as well as the brass, and you will get a bit more carbon buildup in the chamber... and if you swap to brass, it can lead to a stuck case...



    I don't believe I gave bad info. I received very specific advise from DPMS. I wish I would have saved the email, but they strongly advised against using steel case ammo. I should start a future thread on shooting steel case thru non-chrome lined barrels. I'd be curious about who's had success and who has not.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    Just last weekend I was visiting my local (over priced) gun store and overheard a gentleman in the process of purchasing a DPMS Panther Lite. From the discussion I overheard the customer knew very little about AR's and gun's in general. The price of the rifle was $1,299 and they were throwing in a case of 500 rds of steel cased Wolf ammo. Now I am really interrested because I had just recently purchased the same rifle (brand new) at a local pawn shop for $799. When the counter guy walked away for a moment I told the guy it would not be wise to shoot the steel cased wolf because the DPMS did not have a chrome lined chamber. The counter guy overheard me and some what politely tried to dismiss me. Now I can take a hint so I went about my shopping. I just couldnt help but want to tell the customer he was getting hosed, but minded my own business none the less. Should I have said something to the customer about a better deal down the road?
    You sure? Was he buying the LT16 or LT20 223? You sure he was not buying with a scope and mount?

    You are positive it was not an LR 308 16 or a 6.8 20 6.8 FXD. They look similar. Hate to tell you but you got a fair deal, not a great deal on your LT. the 20 is a few bucks more.

    If he was buying a 308, it would be somewhat more expensive but he would still over paying by a 2 to 1 margin over what you paid for your LT.

    I don't know about the etiquette. I guess I would have to answer the question with a question. Suppose you were in a Toyota showroom. Would you walk up to a customer talking to a salesman and say, Hey, did you know that Toyota is dangerous and has been recalled? I doubt it. There might be a time and place but that would not be the right time or place. In a gun shop, I don't think the situation is any different. The guy behind the counter is a salesman first and probably working on commission. He might have just been told by the boss to make some sales or find another job.

    Like W.C Fields said, Never give a sucker an even break. The customer could have done some research on price if he cared. As for the steel tip cartridges, they not recommended if wants to maintain the barrel in good condition but neither are +P rounds for most handguns. I probably would not have said anything at the sales counter.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    You sure? Was he buying the LT16 or LT20 223? You sure he was not buying with a scope and mount?

    You are positive it was not an LR 308 16 or a 6.8 20 6.7 FXD. They look similar. Hate to tell you but you got a fair deal, not a great deal.

    If he was buying a 308, it would be somewhat more expensive but he would still over paying by a 2 to 1 margin over what you paid for your LT.

    I don't know about the etiquette. I guess I would have to answer the question with a question. Suppose you were in a Toyota showroom. Would you walk up to a customer talking to a sale man and say, Hey, did you know that Toyota is dangerous and has been recalled? I doubt it. There might be a time and place but that would not be the right time or place. In a gun shop, I don't think the situation is any different. The guy behind the counter is a salesman first and probably working on commission. He might have just been told by the boss to make some sales or find another job.

    Like W.C Fields said, Never give a sucker an even break. The customer could have done some research on price if he cared. As for the steel tip cartridges, they not recommended if wants to maintain the barrel in good condition but neither are +P rounds for most handguns. I probably would not have said anything at the sales counter.
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    It is the .223 w/o barrel cut out and A1 carry handle. I didnt think I got a "great deal", but I knew the guy buying the exact same rifle was being grossly over charged.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    It is the .223 w/o barrel cut out and A1 carry handle. I didnt think I got a "great deal", but I knew the guy buying the exact same rifle was being grossly over charged.
    No doubt, He got hosed.
    I don't know much about Wolf. I believe they are made in Russia? Steel and aluminum jacketed bullets are common in Europe and China. Usually the lead core is alloy lead and antimony to increase hardness. The steel wash coating is soft and malleable maybe only 2 or 3 mils. thick. Steel may not be recommended not so much because of the Steel but maybe because the steel is usually coated or plated to prevent rusting. I could see where the coating could gunk up in the barrel.

    I would for sure not use aluminum jacketed projectiles. Any fine aluminum particles could corrode the barrel. I would not even use aluminum rods for cleaning. I really don't know and have no experience shooting Steel, Aluminum or Nickle jacketed bullets. I'm just guessing as to why they would not be recommended.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    Oh the heck with it, tell it like it is. Don't let the guy get hosed by a rip off artist, that's what's wrong with this world and society, to many dang people are willing to sit back and say he should have known what he was getting into or he should have researched it or whatever, hey folks, that's why we are here or supposedly from what I keep hearing from the vast majority of everyone here to help each other out or support one another. I sure will.

    It's up to us to teach and instruct those who come after us the way it's suppose to be. If that means you tell this guy he's getting hosed, tell it like it is. If you don't go back there and do business oh well, do it on-line or somewhere else.
    Amen...Some folks are new and inexperienced. It's nice that someone would consider taking the time to offer an education. I certainly wouldn't want to be ripped off, and even after doing research, sometimes the potential is still there. So, research or not, help out a fellow shooter. What do you have to lose. Besides, if the gun store will stick it to him, what's to prevent them from doing the same to you! JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array boatail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screamin'Eagle View Post
    +1

    If you put two pieces of the same type of material next to each other, they are going to wear on each other a lot. If you put two pieces of differing material together, the softer material is going to conform to the harder material with very little effort. Steel + Steel = Materials fighting each other = Excessive Wear. Steel + Brass = Cartridge conforming to chamber = Normal "polishing."

    Chrome is chemically different and harder than steel, that is why it is used as a plating over steel. It's not always just for its "bling" properties. :)
    Agreed, but I've been told, maybe wrongly, that the steel used is much softer to enable it to expand normally. If thats NOT true, then I'll just have to save what I have for when I can't get anything else. Thats too bad since I want to use the cheap stuff on the range and keep the good stuff for the field..oh well

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    What about the shop keeper not explaining the detriment of shooting steel cased ammo through a non chrome lined chamber barreled rifle?
    What detriment? I run steel case Wolf .223 through my non chromed Colt all the time with zero problems.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatail View Post
    Agreed, but I've been told, maybe wrongly, that the steel used is much softer to enable it to expand normally. If thats NOT true, then I'll just have to save what I have for when I can't get anything else. Thats too bad since I want to use the cheap stuff on the range and keep the good stuff for the field..oh well
    Swap it out. I do that often at ranges I shoot at. All the ranges I shoot at know I have not tamperd with the ammo. They are usually happy to swap out. In my case, it is usually for a different caliber. Usually though they do it to keep you coming back.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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