Accidental or Negligent Discharge

This is a discussion on Accidental or Negligent Discharge within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; People don't get sued for an accident; they get sued for the negligence that caused an accident. Next?...

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Thread: Accidental or Negligent Discharge

  1. #16
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    People don't get sued for an accident; they get sued for the negligence that caused an accident.

    Next?
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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  3. #17
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    "To me, it isn't so much about the Webster's definition, as this is close to "jargon" within the community of gun owners/students of firearms."

    Kind of the same thing with clip versus magazine. While technically wrong, you know what they mean. When a sailor asks me where the head is, I point him toward the latrine. I know what he meant; communication is accomplished. No one makes a big deal of it. Well, some might.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    When a sailor asks me where the head is, I point him toward the latrine.
    Where you guys on a Navy vessel? just sayin


    November 10th 1775... anything special about that date?
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  5. #19
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    If your finger is on the trigger OR you did not do due diligence to ensure there was nothing that could come in contact with the trigger (think: pocket carry--keys, pens, and the like; or wearing a jacket with drawstrings on the side that could fall into the holster)....then it is NEGLIGENT

    If the firearm discharges without any external force on the trigger or trigger mechanism or safety/decocker used in the manner it was designed and the firearm discharges....then it is ACCIDENTAL.

    Both can be prevented through good habits (trigger finger discipline, carrying, holstering--for NDs; good cleaning/PMCS of the weapon--for ADs)

    ADs are very rare; NDs are more common than ADs--it's usually a booger hook on the bang switch.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Where you guys on a Navy vessel? just sayin
    Nope, AF base.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  7. #21
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    If the gun goes off all by itself, it's accidental.

    If the gun goes off while you're handling it, and you didn't intend for it to go off, it's negligent.

    IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR DEFINITION OF "IS" IS!
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  8. #22
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    I would say there is a difference. I was at the shooting range and was watching a woman fire her boyfriend handgun, it turned out to be a POS davis 380...Well I was taking a smoke break and was watching them shoot. Great form GREAT safety. She dropped the empty mag, loaded another fired it NO PROBLEMS. One the third mag, she loaded it and as she cycled the slide (since davis doesnt lock back) by letting it slam forward ( with davis you usual have to do that in my experience or it will NOT chamber correctly - NO FINGER ANYWHERE NEAR THE TRIGGER) it went boom... Something went wrong and the firing pin struck primer and caused ACCIDENTAL discharge. No injury, but no one touched that thing except to unload and put in a locked case.
    BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 12 THAN CARRIED BY 6
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    I would describe a true accidental discharge as a malfunction of a firearm such as when a firearm discharges while chambering a round. Any other discharge would fit into the negligent category since firearms do not just “go off” unless there is a finger on the trigger.
    So when my RIA 1911 45 compact fell out of my holster 3 feet on the muzzle and discharged that according to you would be a negligent discharge,my shirt was caught between the gun and holster and as I raised my shirt to unholster it pulled the gun out.
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    So when my RIA 1911 45 compact fell out of my holster ... that according to you would be a negligent discharge [shirt ... caught between the gun and holster].
    Yes, IMO.

    Why? The procedure for holstering up that day didn't verify that it could be carried normally without risk to loss of gun, inability to get to it, etc.

    I'm guilty as well. I certainly don't verify each and every time (since it's a pain), but occasionally I have checked to ensure my shirt and cover garments aren't hosed up in either the gun holster or mag carrier. Once, it was. I'm sure it'll happen again, at some point. And that won't be caused by equipment failure or someone else. That'll be due to my lax procedure for gearing up, and for failing to religiously validate that it'll survive the day's normal and expected activities.

    Though, it all depends on what "is" is, as some have suggested. IMO, if I have failed to perform a foreseeable step or verification step, or if I did perform something that went awry, then if something blows sideways I obviously didn't do it correctly or well. Negligence, failing to perform the basic steps properly and well. Competency with safety, handling and carrying should be just that. Failure to achieve that is, to my way of thinking, negligence.

    Note: No arguments, here. I'm simply pointing out how hard on myself I am, as to what constitutes my own failure to perform the basic tasks surrounding competent firearms handling. I also apply the same thinking when I'm viewing someone else performing those same types of steps. Though, of course, you can call your own actions whatever you'd prefer. YMMV, whereas MMWFM (my mileage works for me).
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    So when my RIA 1911 45 compact fell out of my holster 3 feet on the muzzle and discharged that according to you would be a negligent discharge,my shirt was caught between the gun and holster and as I raised my shirt to unholster it pulled the gun out.
    Yes, not to nit pick or be argumentative but it was a failure in proper gun handling by failing to insure the holster was clear before reholstering the weapon. There have been several reports on here over the years where people have shot themselves in the leg when something has pulled the trigger while reholstering; ccw9mm really sums it up rather nicely.
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  12. #26
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    Machts nix to me. I just hope that neither happen to me, especially after reading and trying to remember all of these sad and scary and bad forum post and TV, newspaper and magazine stories. I dread and fear that "experienced veteran" Civil War reenactors make such mistakes and have such accidents, each and every year, while having fun with their black-powder guns.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    So when my RIA 1911 45 compact fell out of my holster 3 feet on the muzzle and discharged that according to you would be a negligent discharge,my shirt was caught between the gun and holster and as I raised my shirt to unholster it pulled the gun out.
    Yeah that's the definition of negligent handling.

  14. #28
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    Msgt/Ret stated the case completely. We had an officer a while back who put the muzzle of his weapon in the snailtrap prior to inspection and proceeded to eject a round out of the chamber. Without taking the magazine out of the weapon (which he is required to do per department regulations before taking the weapon out of the holster) he let the slide go forward and another round chambered. He then pulled the trigger. What happened next was no accident !
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSteve View Post
    I think this is one that could be argued semantics of the words all day long, and find people right on both sides.

    I personally prefer the term "negligent" because I think it has the right conotation. It's easy to become complacent when we think of accidents; as the saying goes "accident's happen". That makes it easier to not take respobsibility for the event or its prevention. Whereas, if we focus on the issue being negligence, there is an implied responsibility to prevent it.
    This here. Also I think those in the military will use ND to describe it more often than not. You are always responsible for your weapon and if you're being responsible and use proper safety you won't have an issue.
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    An accident caused by a defective part?
    Then you were negligent in your care of the weapon and your safety inspections. Just my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097
    November 10th 1775... anything special about that date?
    In Tun Tavern, on the corner of Water Street and Tun Alley, Benjamin Franklin organized the PA Militia and later George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and the Continental Congress had meetings there. It was on that date and in that tavern that the Continental Congress commissioned Samuel Nicholas to raise two Battalions of Marines. Robert Mullen was the first recruiter. Essentially the USMC was born in Tun Tavern, on that date. (unrelated to the thread as it may be)
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

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