Further FFL questions (child in college out-of-state)

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  1. #1
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    Further FFL questions (child in college out-of-state)

    Please help me understand how to avoid trouble with the Feds:

    Here's the setup:
    • Parents live in "Parent's State".
    • Child has a driver's license in Parent's State (along with all other official stuff);
    • Child receives all of her support from the parents;
    • Child attends school in "College State";
    • Child wants weapon and parents want to get it for her.


    To avoid a straw purchase, I understand that:
    • SHE must be the one to purchase the weapon if it comes from her money; or
    • Parents may purchase the weapon and flat-out give it to her.


    To avoid a problem with a non-resident purchase, I need help. It appears that she may:
    • Purchase in Parent's State, in person when she visits; or
    • Obtain a College State driver's license and purchase in College State.


    Last question, regarding movement and shipping of a handgun:
    • I know she can take her weapon as checked luggage;
    • I know she can buy when on a trip and have the out-of-area dealer ship to an FFL in her state-of-residence; BUT...
    • Can a parent buy a weapon in the Parent's State as a gift for her, and have it shipped to an FFL in the College State?
    • And for a bonus question... can the parents buy a weapon, as a gift for her, from their home in the Parent's State, over the internet, and have it shipped to an FFL in the College State for her to pick up?


    (I think my last section asks whether there's a difference in the residency requirements for picking up a shipped weapon versus residency requirements for a purchase.)

    I also understand that she can't visit a roommate's state and buy herself a weapon there (see Purchase out-of-state when on vacation?).

    Thanks for the help, folks!
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  3. #2
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    As long as she is still a resident of Virginia there is no problem. [Now some student set up residency at college to vote locally, yet maintain a DL back home, do not qualify for in-State tuition, etc and I have no idea how that works for gun law.]

    Here in Virginia there is no restriction on the transfer of any gun between individual residents who can possess that gun.

    Purchasing handguns for a gift is not a straw-purchase. It is legal for you to buy it for her and give it to her as a resident of Virginia.

    Giving her the $s, as a gift, and she buys it herself with what is now her $s is also legal.

    At that point it is her gun.

    From that point on the questions turn on the law of the "college State."

    If she can possess it in the "college State", she can transport it to the college State under the "Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, or FOPA" and the rules of various airline (if flying).

    Ck out: NRA-ILA ::

    There are a couple of good threads here on flying with a gun. A search should turn up all you need.

    If for some reason she feels better shipping it to herself, she can do that also. No one is chancing possession of the gun, at that point.
    Last edited by DaveH; May 22nd, 2010 at 09:14 PM. Reason: changed "citizen" to "resident"
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    As long as she is still a resident of Virginia there is no problem. [Now some student set up residency at college to vote locally, yet maintain a DL back home, do not qualify for in-State tuition, etc and I have no idea how that works for gun law.]

    Here in Virginia there is no restriction on the transfer of any gun between individual residents who can possess that gun.

    Purchasing handguns for a gift is not a straw-purchase. It is legal for you to buy it for her and give it to her as a resident of Virginia.

    Giving her the $s, as a gift, and she buys it herself with what is now her $s is also legal.

    At that point it is her gun.

    From that point on the questions turn on the law of the "college State."

    If she can possess it in the "college State", she can transport it to the college State under the "Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, or FOPA" and the rules of various airline (if flying).

    Ck out: NRA-ILA ::

    There are a couple of good threads here on flying with a gun. A search should turn up all you need.

    If for some reason she feels better shipping it to herself, she can do that also. No one is chancing possession of the gun, at that point.
    DaveH, this is for Paymeister as as well.

    I am reviewing VA code. 1. Under federal law it is legal for a person to sell a firearm to any resident of his/her state (dad to daughter).
    2. A person may only acquire a firearm within the person's own state except that he/she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at the licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the state of sale and the State where the purchaser resides.

    What that means is that if it is within your own state, NO FFL is needed and ATF is just fine with that arrangement as long as it is okay with the State law where you reside.

    The problem I am having is that I do not see a provision for this in the VA code except for 18.2-308.2:22, P, i - A person who purchases a handgun in a private sale. This provision, as I read it can only be used for C&R.

    If you know of another section, please reference the section, paragraph and subsection that applies.


    As far as shipping: I would recommend that if you have the time you do not ship by air with your luggage. Instead, Federal law allows you to ship a firearm to yourself in care of another person in the state where he/she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

    A non-licensee may not ship a handgun by U.S. Postal service. You must use a common or contract carrier such as UPS or FedEx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    Please help me understand how to avoid trouble with the Feds:

    Here's the setup:
    • Parents live in "Parent's State".
    • Child has a driver's license in Parent's State (along with all other official stuff);
    • Child receives all of her support from the parents;
    • Child attends school in "College State"; What State?
    • Child wants weapon and parents want to get it for her.


    To avoid a straw purchase, I understand that:
    • SHE must be the one to purchase the weapon if it comes from her money; or
    • Parents may purchase the weapon and flat-out give it to her.
    Maybe, Any person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sportijng purposes.
    To avoid a problem with a non-resident purchase, I need help. It appears that she may:
    • Purchase in Parent's State, in person when she visits; or
    • Obtain a College State driver's license and purchase in College State.
    Possible but usually takes utilitiy bills, driver lic., to prove 6 months or more of residency in most states.

    Last question, regarding movement and shipping of a handgun:
    • I know she can take her weapon as checked luggage;
    • I know she can buy when on a trip and have the out-of-area dealer ship to an FFL in her state-of-residence; BUT...
    • Can a parent buy a weapon in the Parent's State as a gift for her, and have it shipped to an FFL in the College State?
    • And for a bonus question... can the parents buy a weapon, as a gift for her, from their home in the Parent's State, over the internet, and have it shipped to an FFL in the College State for her to pick up? No because it is not her legal state of residency, she would not be able to purchase the firearm.

    (I think my last section asks whether there's a difference in the residency requirements for picking up a shipped weapon versus residency requirements for a purchase.)

    I also understand that she can't visit a roommate's state and buy herself a weapon there (see Purchase out-of-state when on vacation?). I don't even need to read this because it would still involve the Buyer taking posession from an FFL in his/her state of residence.

    Thanks for the help, folks!
    See my post to you and DaveH above.
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    18.2-308.2:2. is about purchase or transfer from a "dealer."

    Virginia is a Common Law State.

    If it ain't against statute law or precedent case law it's legal. You don't need a law saying it is legal.

    Just like I don't know of anything saying OC is illegal (and we are a OC State based on that).

    I don't know of anything saying transfer of any sort (sale, gift, loan, bequest in a will, etc) is illegal. So we do it. And the antes beat their drums about "closing the [so-called] gun-show-loophole". There is no "loophole." There is just honest transfers between individuals, neither of which is a dealer.
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    SIGP250, I don't understand post # 4.

    My whole reply turns on her being a legal resident of Virginia and later on the question of "if as non-resident of the 'college State' she can possess a handgun there."

    If she is a resident of Virginia private transfer or purchase here in Virginia is legal and she should be legal buying from a dealer.

    The the question then moves to the laws of the "College State."

    If she can have it there, she can take it there or ship it there.

    BTW -- courts have found that the term "resident" can mean different things under different laws.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    SIGP250, I don't understand post # 4.
    I was waiting for your post to see what would be legal if a transfer was not.
    My whole reply turns on her being a legal resident of Virginia and later on the question of "if as non-resident of the 'college State' she can possess a handgun there."

    If she is a resident of Virginia private transfer or purchase here in Virginia is legal and she should be legal buying from a dealer.

    Private transfer okay at 18, handgun purchase is 21 by Federal law. 18 U.S.C. 922 (x)(3).


    The the question then moves to the laws of the "College State."


    She might be able to OC but if not 21 w/ a CCW, no.
    This does not mean that a pistol cannot be used in her abode for SD
    .

    If she can have it there, she can take it there or ship it there.

    She can ship it there if she is of legal age.

    BTW -- courts have found that the term "resident" can mean different things under different laws.
    See BATFE 18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a), (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11 for what constitutes residency.
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    1) Age:

    SIGP250, from Paymeister's earlier post in other threads I know she has been a way at college for sometime. So I was assuming she is 18 or older. If not, some things do need to be reconsidered.

    2) Even if under 18:

    I am aware of:

    18 U.S.C. 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts

    ....

    (x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or
    otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has
    reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile -
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to
    knowingly possess -
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    (3) This subsection does not apply to -
    (A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a
    juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition
    by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and
    used by the juvenile -
    (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or
    farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile
    (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the
    juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee,
    is performing activities related to the operation of the farm
    or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction
    in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
    (ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent
    or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local
    law from possessing a firearm, except -
    (I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded
    handgun in a locked container directly from the place of
    transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause
    (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of
    that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly
    from the place at which such an activity took place to the
    transferor
    ....
    However, there is neither an "and' nor an "or" between

    (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or
    farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile
    (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the
    juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee,
    is performing activities related to the operation of the farm
    or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction
    in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
    and

    (ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent
    or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local
    law from possessing a firearm
    Therefore, I read them to stand alone and that a juvenile can possess a handgun in places other than a farm etc and can also transport a handgun under FOPA -- with prior written consent of that juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm.

    SIGP250 or anyone, am I missing something here?

    3) Carry under age 21:

    I don't remember where she attends college. However, some States do issue CC permits at 18.

    Also, I'm not sure about the "Constitutional Carry" States. Does anyone know if there is an age limit? Would legal possession under [whatever] "with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian" work to carry in any of the Constitutional Carry" States?

    This may or may not apply to Paymeister's situation, but it is an interesting question.

    4) Residency:

    I was suggesting that Paymeister check the "college State's" law on that.

    I am aware of

    State of residence. The State in which an individual resides.
    ....

    Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
    ....
    What I don't know is does she live in a dorm and if so does that meet the "maintains a home" requirement, under Federal law. But I think it does.

    Also, different States do have different statutory law and/or case law on the question of residence for the purpose of various issues (e.g. -- voting vs. marriage licenses vs. vehicle registration, inspection, taxes, tags, etc vs. drivers licenses vs. gun laws; etc). It's not unusual to need to register vehicle, have it inspected, pay taxes, buy tags because you are a "resident" well before you are a "resident" for CC purposes. For that matter in some states you must register guns long before you can meet the "residency" requirement for a CC permit

    Just watching out for a gun trap on this issue.

    If legal under State law, I would just go with that, in a case like this.
    Last edited by DaveH; May 23rd, 2010 at 09:06 AM. Reason: add a bit to points on Residency
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    DaveH,

    I is difficult to help someone without knowing all the facts. It is good that you stuck with me to do the research without shooting from the hip, thanks!
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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