Competition, or something for testing... why not more?

This is a discussion on Competition, or something for testing... why not more? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I had a long post and deleted it because I couldn't exactly express my thoughts. Short version rant: As a new member and infrequent poster, ...

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Thread: Competition, or something for testing... why not more?

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    Member Array Simonsay's Avatar
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    Competition, or something for testing... why not more?

    I had a long post and deleted it because I couldn't exactly express my thoughts. Short version rant:

    As a new member and infrequent poster, I just had to speak up and ask this after today's USPSA match. Why would you go to the trouble of messing with a SD handgun, if you didn't know for sure it would run or that you could run it under a little stress. I'm amazed. The clock seems to create malfunctions and pilot error that never happen on a static range.

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    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
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    That's a great argument for more practice, if you ask me.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
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    Member Array aric's Avatar
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    USPSA/CAS/IPSC/IDPA are games and have little resemblance to a self defense situation regardless of what the organizers wish to promote.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonsay View Post
    I had a long post and deleted it because I couldn't exactly express my thoughts. Short version rant:

    As a new member and infrequent poster, I just had to speak up and ask this after today's USPSA match. Why would you go to the trouble of messing with a SD handgun, if you didn't know for sure it would run or that you could run it under a little stress. I'm amazed. The clock seems to create malfunctions and pilot error that never happen on a static range.

    I'm actually not sure where you're coming from on this. My guess is that it was your first run at a USPSA sanctioned match, and you took your EDC. That's cool. My wife and I did a USPSA match today as well. We made a lot of them last year. Steel Challenge is always fun, but it is running against the clock and penalties for misses, or correct target engagement as posted for the course of fire. I started out shooting the IPSC matches with our club which are also timed, but lots of movement, and tactical magazine changes to be had as well as the possibilities of hitting innocent (or no-hit) targets. Shooting through windows, over barricades, opening doors, starting from an odd position where your pistol is away from you, or you are in an other than standing and ready position such as lying on a bed or your back facing downrange. I honestly couldn't tell you who has it right as far a practical practice to be considered applied toward training for the common carrying citizen. IDPA, USPSA, IPSC, etc..... It's all in how one approaches it and in what way. I'll guarantee you go to any sanctioned match or even an informal one, and you'll learn things you'd never thought of, and a lot of them are going to make you think of a lot of ways that you could become better. Most of what the novice will learn are the safety rules re-iterated that we all should know, but in the heat of the moment might have a tendency to slip on such as muzzle awareness and the like. All of the matches we go are give and take critique on the shooter's form, and designed to help each other become better and to think about what they are doing while they're shooting, or drawing from the holster, or how they have a hold on their pistol, where their misses are going and the possibilities of why. Our club is great and we have a lot of great folks at each and every match...not to find our faults, but to help us all become better shooters, and this all follows us into the concrete jungle or Booger county and our own life away from the range and more prepared to do what's right when we need to do it. Not everyone is able to get into a good shooting club, or find an opportunity to participate in a match. Some see no need other than static range practice against a piece of paper or tin cans. We're not here to tell others what's right and what's wrong if they choose to carry, we're just here to assist them any way we can, and those of us lucky enough to be able to participate in those activities or to have a good club in a day's driving distance can only render our experiences to the rest, and keep an open mind while looking at the big picture. All we need to do (and here is the best place to do it in my opinion) is walk away at the end of the day as a better person, with more knowledge about what we are interested in knowing, or thinking more about what we want in the future for ourselves, helping others open their eyes, assist in making their decisions at hand more focused, and hopefully get each and every one of us more prepared for the day when we'll need all of the good information gathered here. If anyone here ever gets in a predicament where they need to save themselves for the next day, the best I could hope for would be due to something they learned right here on DC or with links to more information. This is the reason why I always try to give the best information or experiences, and advice I have right here.
    New member and infrequent poster huh? How can we change that? I'm sure you've got a lot more on your mind that you're not getting out.
    The long posts...tell me about long posts. Rant? Just be careful with the words, but it really should come out here amongst family rather than you kicking the dog. Never post in haste or post haste until you've got it all down, then think better of a few things after review. Personally, I'd like to see you around here more often. I think you've got a lot to give to the forum, and you wouldn't be storing up all of these questions and anxieties so long that you'd have to blurt them out and delete them. I want to welcome you to the family. We don't all sit down together at the same time for dinner, and sometimes we miss each other in passing. Great thing about the internet is what got left yesterday is still there tomorrow. Let me know if there's anything I've missed, or any further questions you have, or run something by me before you delete it for fear of deletions by you or the mods.
    I've got a little bit of sunburn from the match today, and I need to mow the lawn. I'm sending you a friend request today, and it will be there tomorrow and the next day, and the next until you ignore it. But it will still be there on the internet. Have a good one.

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    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aric View Post
    USPSA/CAS/IPSC/IDPA are games and have little resemblance to a self defense situation regardless of what the organizers wish to promote.

    With all due respect, IMHO, any time you are able to shoot, regardless of the surroundings, structure, company, or prize, it is practice for real life situations.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
    -Ruger P345; LCP
    -Mossberg 590A1; Model 42
    -Phoenix Arms Raven

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCWFlaRuger View Post
    With all due respect, IMHO, any time you are able to shoot, regardless of the surroundings, structure, company, or prize, it is practice for real life situations.
    I agree, but it does depend a lot on one's principles and goals. Shooting is good and it is practice. We all make of it what we will or we just generate empty brass.

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    Member Array Simonsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCWFlaRuger View Post
    That's a great argument for more practice, if you ask me.
    "Practice" has many definitions... It's somewhat disturbing to see someone that feels their equipment and skills are adequate, when it's obviously not. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be an M class USPSA shooter, but having a gun that runs and knowing how to manipulate it would be a positive.

    A "practical pistol" match, is "A" place to test equipment and the shooter's limitations. It's an opportunity for feedback. Why more don't take advantage of it is a mystery to me.

    Rant off: Sorry

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    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
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    I agree, but it does depend a lot on one's principles and goals. Shooting is good and it is practice. We all make of it what we will or we just generate empty brass.
    Totally agree, RamRod, was just stating the obvious part in defense of the USPSA/CAS/IPSC/IDPA comps as real life practice. They are very much more realistic than standing on the line shooting at the same piece of paper for 100 rds. But, that has its place too.

    I am very interested in taking part in pistol skills competition, however, for the time being, I have neither the gun, nor the money to indulge.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
    -Ruger P345; LCP
    -Mossberg 590A1; Model 42
    -Phoenix Arms Raven

  10. #9
    Member Array Simonsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    I'm actually not sure where you're coming from on this. My guess is that it was your first run at a USPSA sanctioned match,
    Well you missed it a little. I have an M card in SS and have been active in USPSA for about 5 years. I've been an RO almost as long. Thanks for the welcome though. I've lurked here for some time and have found some good reading.

  11. #10
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonsay View Post
    "Practice" has many definitions... It's somewhat disturbing to see someone that feels their equipment and skills are adequate, when it's obviously not. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be an M class USPSA shooter, but having a gun that runs and knowing how to manipulate it would be a positive.

    A "practical pistol" match, is "A" place to test equipment and the shooter's limitations. It's an opportunity for feedback. Why more don't take advantage of it is a mystery to me.

    Rant off: Sorry
    Never apologize for something you mean to say #1. What you say can be taken many ways above and beyond your control. I see you've found some enlightenment as of late. Thing is...there's a lot of folks out there that will never see the opportunity that you've got recently. A lot has got to do with economics. Just like me and my wife. I would absolutely love to get us to Thunder Ranch or any of the other nationally known formal training centers for a three day tour. At the expense, it's near impossible at this time, so we do what we can locally. We drove 150 miles round trip and paid $10 each for the match and our clubs' dues for a year are $85. Add 200 rounds each of 9mm and 45acp, and we're getting close to a $150 expense on the day not including breakfast at Western Sizzlin on the way there which is our traditional match schedule. Not everyone can afford such an ordeal for practical practice. You've got to live within your means, and by golly I work my ass off in hell six days a week to see that my wife and I get the opportunity once a month to do this. I consider myself lucky enough to have a job where they pretty much own me in this day in time. I know there are folks less fortunate. Some depend on pretty much whatever they have, and that's all they can do. Consider yourself lucky like I do myself. Things will start coming into perspective soon. Do what you can and relay the message. Enlighten. Don't show others what they are missing. We all don't have the same means. I hope it's no longer a mystery to you, and you'll go to sleep tonight with ease, and a lighter load on your mind. Like I say, I'm accessible any time you'd like to discuss something out of the forum that might help you in any way.

  12. #11
    Member Array Simonsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aric View Post
    USPSA/CAS/IPSC/IDPA are games and have little resemblance to a self defense situation regardless of what the organizers wish to promote.
    Seeing if you can put two in paper and making sure your equipment works ain't all bad.

    I shot with a good friend today; USPSA Grand Master, retired LEO (primarily firearms instruction), and now - subcontactor Air Marshal / Homeland Security fireams instruction... I can't keep up with the titles....
    No disrespect, but, I think he'd have a different opinion. We can admit they are games, but skills are skills.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    Here here. I too have an "M" card. Nothing in USPSA is going to help in a critical incident, period. If you think you're going to shoot the same way in a surprise incident as you would after seeing the stage layout, getting a stage briefing, thinking about it for 30 minutes, watching 15 people shoot it, and then shooting it yourself, you're high. IDPA, dittos--it's too scripted. They're games, but they put us in situations that we can't put ourselves into, safely, and give us a way to identify our weaknesses.

    What ya wanna avoid is practicing FOR the match. The match should be a validation of what you've practiced, not the reason for your practice. Hey--it's like the old saying--"Champion boxers are made in the gym and recognized in the ring". If I shoot a match, I'm going to win it. That's my expectation, and it usually bears out. But I'm not practicing for the win. The win is just saying "Well done,Marine."

    Make sense?
    Dan
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    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    I could and should practice more, and take some classes, like the masses who now roam away from home with legally-concealed and loaded firearms that can and do occasionally cause grave and accidental bodily harm. All target shooting is good, regardless of scripts or scenarios. Everything that is not Spec Ops or SWAT is not necessarily squat.

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    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Dan View Post
    Here here. I too have an "M" card. Nothing in USPSA is going to help in a critical incident, period. If you think you're going to shoot the same way in a surprise incident as you would after seeing the stage layout, getting a stage briefing, thinking about it for 30 minutes, watching 15 people shoot it, and then shooting it yourself, you're high. IDPA, dittos--it's too scripted. They're games, but they put us in situations that we can't put ourselves into, safely, and give us a way to identify our weaknesses.

    What ya wanna avoid is practicing FOR the match. The match should be a validation of what you've practiced, not the reason for your practice. Hey--it's like the old saying--"Champion boxers are made in the gym and recognized in the ring". If I shoot a match, I'm going to win it. That's my expectation, and it usually bears out. But I'm not practicing for the win. The win is just saying "Well done,Marine."

    Make sense?
    Dan
    Good stuff. Ram Rod, too
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

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    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonsay View Post
    I had a long post and deleted it because I couldn't exactly express my thoughts. Short version rant:

    As a new member and infrequent poster, I just had to speak up and ask this after today's USPSA match. Why would you go to the trouble of messing with a SD handgun, if you didn't know for sure it would run or that you could run it under a little stress. I'm amazed. The clock seems to create malfunctions and pilot error that never happen on a static range.
    Maybe one would run it, to try the pistol. To see if it would hold up under stress.

    Maybe I'm not understanding your mini-rant. I've never shot in any matches, they're not available in my neck of the woods.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

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