Two vendors injured at Florida Gun Show (ND)

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Thread: Two vendors injured at Florida Gun Show (ND)

  1. #16
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    This why I stopped going to gun shows. Any idiot is allowed in.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    Why couldn't he pull the slide back to check it? There seems to be flaw in his logic of pulling the trigger to make sure it's safe.
    Simple. He wasn't making sure it was safe, he just assumed it was clear. It's not that he used a stupid method to check the gun, he just didn't check it at all.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    And people wonder why gun-shows post signs prohibiting carrying inside. I've seen it happen twice even when the facilities were posted. There are a whole lot of goofballs at every gun show who are a danger handling guns.
    Nearly all the NDs at gun-shows, which I know of, have been the negligence of a VENDOR.

    The vendors came through a different entrance and no "security staff" checked their merchandise or put plastic ties their inventory at every gun-show, which I've been involved with.

    Any one know of a customer who was CC having a ND at a gun-show?

    What does "prohibiting carrying inside" have to do with ND by vendors?

    IMHO, the rules should be:

    1) "You are responsible for any firearm you handle."

    2) "Anyone who handles a firearm will checking that it is cleared, when first touching the firearm. Anyone who fails to do so or to request assistance in checking that a firearm is unloaded will be banned for life"

    3) "If a personal firearm come out of the holster or out of the box loaded, you will be charged with [fill-in-the-blank-with-something-such-as-reckless-endangering]."

    4) "Sand buckets are located at [maybe outside, if you can manage the smoking and firearm clearing sand bucket problem] the door. Before un-holstering or handling a loaded personal firearm you must clear it at one of these buckets. There are trained personal at the clearing points to assist you if you request it."

    IMHO, any ban on CC or OC at gun-shows is no different and based on no different fears than his-dishonor king dick of Chicago's ban -- "we can't have that here, because it is too dangerous."
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Nearly all the NDs at gun-shows, which I know of, have been the negligence of a VENDOR.

    The vendors came through a different entrance and no "security staff" checked their merchandise or put plastic ties their inventory at every gun-show, which I've been involved with.

    Any one know of a customer who was CC having a ND at a gun-show?

    What does "prohibiting carrying inside" have to do with ND by vendors?

    IMHO, the rules should be:

    1) "You are responsible for any firearm you handle."

    2) "Anyone who handles a firearm will checking that it is cleared, when first touching the firearm. Anyone who fails to do so or to request assistance in checking that a firearm is unloaded will be banned for life"

    3) "If a personal firearm come out of the holster or out of the box loaded, you will be charged with [fill-in-the-blank-with-something-such-as-reckless-endangering]."

    4) "Sand buckets are located at [maybe outside, if you can manage the smoking and firearm clearing sand bucket problem] the door. Before unholstering or handling a loaded personal firearm you must clear it at one of these buckets. There are trained personal at the clearing points to assist you if you request it."

    IMHO, any ban on CC or OC at gun-shows is no different and based on no different fears than his-dishonor king dick of Chicago's ban -- "we can't have that here, because it is too dangerous
    ."
    +110 on all...plus there should be something the people of Chicago con do about King Douchebag...
    XDM 40cal bitoneXD40SC BitoneBersa 380.
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    I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world."

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    I was at a show in Daytona Beach in the mid 1990s when someone fired a 9mm into the ceiling. I remember being on my stomach on the ground looking past peoples ankles. Most of the folks were staring up at the ceiling where it hit. They never had a gunshow there again and moved them to a crowded building at the county fairgrounds.
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  7. #21
    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Any one know of a customer who was CC having a ND at a gun-show?
    Both of the firings that occurred at the shows I attended were by "customers" who had brought their firearms to the show to trade/sell. This was before shows around here started inspecting and zip tying guys.
    To quote OldVet "Any idiot is allowed in." and some of those in attendance go out of their way to prove they are.
    It's nice you have your own opinion as to what rules you would set.
    For 1) - isn't that the way it should be regardless of a show?
    For 2) - Banning for life? HAHAHA. Good one. And just how to you intend to implement your plan? When was the last show you attended? And just how do you intend to 'ban for life' someone? Hundreds and hundreds of people walk thru the doors everyday. How about you register everyone who attends the gun show and maintain a database on all the attendees? Ban for life? Yeah, lots of deep thought went into that idea.
    For 3) - I guess if you've figured out a plan to remember every person's face at every gun show then you've also figured out a way to charge someone. And just what legal authority do you have to charge someone with your "fill in the blank" charge that you don't even knows exists?
    For 4) - All the shows I've attended the past few years already require all firearms entering the facility to be cleared and zip tied. Why? Because of at least 2 discharges committed by "customers".

    F350 gave some good examples. You'd be surprised at the number of knuckleheads that will come into a gun shop carrying a loaded firearm, absent mindedly wave it around, pull it out to try a holster or to show someone.
    It's not the gun that's too dangerous. It's the far too many knuckleheads that show up who have no idea what they're doing because "Any idiot is allowed in."
    183 FBINA

  8. #22
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    I am probably incorrect about this as I don't know much about guns in general (only alot of info on specific guns) but don't most semi-auto handguns with a hammer also have a decocking lever?

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by opalelement View Post
    I am probably incorrect about this as I don't know much about guns in general (only alot of info on specific guns) but don't most semi-auto handguns with a hammer also have a decocking lever?
    Some Do, Some dont... It all depends on when it was made,who's the maker..


    Take ruger they have it, but Springfield XDm,Glock dont...
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    The vendor that pulled the trigger on a cocked gun without checking is a MORON and should be banned for life from participating in any gun shows
    Agreed....As a vendor, among vendors.

    If he had suspicion enough by the hammer being cocked to purposefully point the gun at the floor (which was NOT a safe area!)...Then his brain at some level must have realized this gun may potentially be _UNSAFE_.
    How do we check for and make safe a firearm? It ain't by pulling triggers.

    Basic firearms safety and handling rules. BASIC!!!

    And what did he think would happen by firing into a concrete floor anyway?
    This is why professionals should invest in and keep a fire bucket (5 lb. pail filled with sand) or as I have a 'Safe Direction' product ballistic pad or case. I have one as a case and it's rated for handguns and rifles.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed.

    If he had suspicion enough by the hammer being cocked to purposefully point the gun at the floor (which was NOT a safe area!)...Then his brain at some level must have realized this gun may potentially be _UNSAFE_.
    How do we check for and make safe a firearm? It ain't by pulling triggers.

    Basic firearms safety and handling rules. BASIC!!!

    And what did he think would happen by firing into a concrete floor anyway?
    This is why professionals should invest in and keep a fire bucket (5 lb. pail filled with sand) or as I have a 'Safe Direction' product ballistic pad or case. I have one as a case and it's rated for handguns and rifles.

    - Janq
    + 100

    Along the lines of having buckets filled with sand and/or ballistic pads or cases, how many shows have them at the entrances?

    Most "security", which I've seen, just say "You can't .... Take it outside..." or worst.

    What's done where you live?
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    And just how do you intend to 'ban for life' someone? Hundreds and hundreds of people walk thru the doors everyday. How about you register everyone who attends the gun show and maintain a database on all the attendees? Ban for life? Yeah, lots of deep thought went into that idea.
    No need to "register everyone." Just those issued trespass warning notifications.

    As for Virginia, see:
    18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen ... he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
    Schools/malls/hospitals/anti-gun restaurants/theaters/golf courses, etc do it, quite often. I'm sure that they have people who are baned yet slip back in go uncaught. But there is a steady stream of convictions of those who try and are caught. I'm, also, sure that they have more people enter their property during the course of a year than enter the local gun-shows.

    Some well publicized criminal trespass convictions would go a long way in stopping the problems, IMHO.

    In fact, if all you had arrested were those who came back and were caught acting stupid a second time, it would help, IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    For 3) - I guess if you've figured out a plan to remember every person's face at every gun show then you've also figured out a way to charge someone. And just what legal authority do you have to charge someone with your "fill in the blank" charge that you don't even knows exists?
    Again not "every person." LEOs don't ticket every speeder or arrest every DUI, any more that I catch every fish in a stream. However, tickets and arrest do significantly reduce the speeding and DUI problems, IMHO.

    Same logic would apply here.

    As for the "fill in the blank", I don't know the laws of ever State and different States have different names and citations for the same general violation.

    As for Virginia, see:

    18.2-56.1. Reckless handling of firearms....

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to handle recklessly any firearm so as to endanger the life, limb or property of any person. Any person violating this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor....
    and

    18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
    I suspect Il has similar laws under whatever name with which you could fill in the blank. I suspect that in some States they would have to use a more general reckless endangering law. Filling-in-the-blank is a State-by-State deal.

    Again, I think some well publicized reckless handling of firearms and/or brandishing convictions from gun-show incidents would go a long way in stopping the problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    For 4) - All the shows I've attended the past few years already require all firearms entering the facility to be cleared and zip tied. Why? Because of at least 2 discharges committed by "customers".
    But who inspects and zip locks the vendor inventory? Here it is not the gun-show security and that's been the source of NDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    It's not the gun that's too dangerous. It's the far too many knuckleheads that show up who have no idea what they're doing because "Any idiot is allowed in."
    To be sure, you are right that some antis are truly hoplophobic.

    However, much of the "May Issue" and other bans & restrictions are based on a nanny-state-of-mind rationals to keep guns out of the hands of knuckleheads, who have no idea what they're doing -- or the equivalent.

    The use of prior restraints on all out of fear of what some may do is right out of the anti-RKBA playbook.

    I'm for post violation punishment of the guilty -- not prior restraints on everyone.

    Address the real problem and punish the real offenders. Don't buy into a feel good anti-RKBS agenda that punishes everyone.

    As always YMMV. But I have thought through how I'd like to see it handled.
    Last edited by DaveH; July 8th, 2010 at 03:53 PM. Reason: typos & syntax
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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