Gun store's license being revoked by ATF

This is a discussion on Gun store's license being revoked by ATF within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Precise record keeping can be is one of the pitfalls of being an FFL Gun Store Owner. you never know when you are going to ...

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Thread: Gun store's license being revoked by ATF

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    Gun store's license being revoked by ATF

    Precise record keeping can be is one of the pitfalls of being an FFL Gun Store Owner.

    you never know when you are going to get audited. When ATF wants to see your records everything must be 100% in order. The way the Federal law is written now, ATF has no choice but to revoke a license and or fine and possibly imprison you for record keeping infractions.

    Two bill are pending that would modernize some of the rules and regulations and allow for less sever penalties for minor record keeping errors.

    Below is a link to the bills followed by a link to the news story. NRA supports these bills. Please contact your U.S. Senator and urge them to support these bills.

    Federal Legislative Roundup: There are currently two bills pending in Congress that require your action. Please review the following legislative initiatives and be sure to contact your U.S. Representative at (202) 225-3121, and your U.S. Senators at (202) 224-3121, and urge them to cosponsor and support these measures. Additional contact information can be found using the "Write Your Representatives" feature at www.NRAILA.org. http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=5981

    News Story and clip:

    http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Gun-s...100662939.html
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    One of our local gun shops was prohibited from selling firearms for four months due to a name change without getting ATF’s blessing first. Fortunately the owner had enough capitol in reserve to stay in business until the benevolent ATF blessed the name change.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wonder how much effort gun shops puts into keeping records in shape...

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    I don't think gun stores should be lax in their record keeping at all...we should not give antis any reason to fume.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Sometimes I wonder how much effort gun shops puts into keeping records in shape...
    If they are smart, quite a bit of effort. As with any business, you will have filers and then you will have pilers. Out of the over 67,000 current FFL holders, many are one or two person businesses and some are what are known as "hobbyist FFL's." Those who mainly buy and sell for their personal collections except at wholesale. All FFL's are held to the same Federal Regulations. Now that electronic record keeping software is allowed there is really no good reason not to keep records up to date and in proper order. The store owner in New Melle MO got audited because she continued to operate as a successor owner without obtaining an FFL in her name. FFL's are not transfered.
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    Senior Member Array jhh3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    I don't think gun stores should be lax in their record keeping at all...we should not give antis any reason to fume.
    Don't worry about the antis fuming. They rely on lies, fantasy, and delusions. Simple truths or things like record keeping errors are never juicy enough for their distorted hatred.

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    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm in the minority here, but if you get a license and promise to do X, Y, and Z and then you don't, why should I feel sorry for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    The store owner in New Melle MO got audited because she continued to operate as a successor owner without obtaining an FFL in her name. FFL's are not transfered.
    Interesting. Just curious. What would happen if an owner died and the Executor (with probate court approval) wanted to keep the store running to generate revenue until the estate could be settled? Would ATF require that the executor become an FFL?

    There are transfers (as in sale of the store) and there are transfers --as to control of an Executor pending disposition. Just asking, for the legal folks around here. It just seems an interesting question to me.

    (Parallel question maybe. Are liquor licenses issued in the name of the business or the name of the proprietor? Can an Executor keep a liquor business going?)

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    I just LOVE how the ATF gets 'tough' with people for no reason. This IS the same ATF, that a few years ago, couldn't account for like 100+ of their OWN weapons. Do as I say, not as I do.

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    Possessing a FFL, like a drivers license, isn't a right; it's a privilige.

    I can understand where a large volume business may have an error on occasion, and the ATF should have the leeway to issue a warning and conduct a follow-up inspection to ensure compliance. Additional failures to comply should certainly be grounds for revoking the FFL (or fines, etc, depending on severity).

    As for the backdoor dealer with a FFL, who sells 2-3 guns a month, there's no excuse not to comply. It's all in the attention to detail.
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    When I first got my FFL (mid 80s) I got a call from the ATF asking for an interview with them, as they wanted to make sure I had all my books in order for business. BTW BOTH Agents were VERY professonal and VERY respectful during my interview. They went over all my inventory, which was properly tagged and displayed in a good manner, and found the ONE thing I missed. They (the ATF) found I had Two handguns, same MFGR and model, that I mistakenly transposed the SAME S/n in my Aquisition book (VERY simple thing to do) and I showed them both guns, with the S/N and correctly entered the S/N of the gun into my books. This was the ONLY audit I ever had, and, like I said, they were VERY professonal, AND PLEASENT to talk with. In 17yrs I never had another "knock knock" by them, or from them regarding anything.
    The ATF will give you EVERY option in order to clear up what errors you may have in your books. (sending certified letters to customers, distributors, dealer to dealer sales, etc) If you can't, or have outstanding errors that can't be corrected, the LAST thing they wish do is revoke the License, unless of course, you're suspected of doing illegal things. Just my opinion and observations from being a FFL and currently working in a huge Gunshop
    BTW, I gave my License up (for the time being) because of a Family member not knowing the difference between profit and investment, and most of you know what I'm talking about, because we usually surrender most (if not all our money) to them when we walk in the door after payday LOL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Interesting. Just curious. What would happen if an owner died and the Executor (with probate court approval) wanted to keep the store running to generate revenue until the estate could be settled? Would ATF require that the executor become an FFL?

    There are transfers (as in sale of the store) and there are transfers --as to control of an Executor pending disposition. Just asking, for the legal folks around here. It just seems an interesting question to me.

    (Parallel question maybe. Are liquor licenses issued in the name of the business or the name of the proprietor? Can an Executor keep a liquor business going?)
    I think this would depend on how the business was organized. A sole-propietership or partnership generally dies with the death of an owner. A corporation could continue in business as the death of an owner would only mean a transfer of stock in the business. I am sure there are some nuances with LLC's. A corporation would have a better chance of being able to continue under the existing FFL if the FFL was issued in the name of the corporation (is that possible?) A sole proprieter or partnership would need a new FFL. This is based on my knowledge of business law. I am no expert on FFL rules and regulations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Interesting. Just curious. What would happen if an owner died and the Executor (with probate court approval) wanted to keep the store running to generate revenue until the estate could be settled? Would ATF require that the executor become an FFL?

    There are transfers (as in sale of the store) and there are transfers --as to control of an Executor pending disposition. Just asking, for the legal folks around here. It just seems an interesting question to me.

    (Parallel question maybe. Are liquor licenses issued in the name of the business or the name of the proprietor? Can an Executor keep a liquor business going?)
    If someone is taking over the business, the original licensee should underline the final entry in each bound book, note the date of transfer and forward all records and forms to the successor (who must apply for and receive his or her own license before lawfully engaging in business) or foreword the records and forms the ATF Out of Business Records Center.

    CFR 478.56 Right of Possession by Certain persons: allows certain persons other than the licensee the right to carry on the same firearms or ammunition business at the same address for the remainder of the term of a current licensee.

    A surviving spouse or child, or executor, administrator, or legal representative, or a receiver or trustee in bankruptcy may secure the right provided the person or persons continuing the business shall furnish the license for that business for endorsement of such secession to the Chief, National Licensing Center, within 30 days from the date of which the successor begins to carry on business.

    This does not negate the owner/successor from also filing ATF Form 7, Application for License in a timely manner. This new application for license should be submitted as soon as possible. The normal time to process a new license application is approximately 120 days.
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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    I don't think gun stores should be lax in their record keeping at all...we should not give antis any reason to fume.
    Simple solution for this. Diisband the BATFE and remove any and all limitations up to and including the licensing nonsense. I shouldn't have to ask the government for permission and a license to make a living nor run a business...of ANY kind.
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    New Member Array JonnyWeelgun's Avatar
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    Seems like a couple important things all gun stores should have, in order of importance:

    1. Inventory
    2. A fastidious book keeper

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