Training the new Protective Detail - how certain guns performed

Training the new Protective Detail - how certain guns performed

This is a discussion on Training the new Protective Detail - how certain guns performed within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I spent the last two days training a number of Colombian National Police from their Dignitary Protection unit who have been assigned to support the ...

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Thread: Training the new Protective Detail - how certain guns performed

  1. #1
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    Training the new Protective Detail - how certain guns performed

    I spent the last two days training a number of Colombian National Police from their Dignitary Protection unit who have been assigned to support the Ambassador's Protective Detail here. Without going into the details of the training, I just wanted to post some observations on the performance of the guns used. These were:

    1 Sig P228
    2 Sig P229s
    3 Glock 19s
    4 Jericho 941s (2 DA, 2 SA)
    18 SigPro 2022s

    All pistols were in 9mm, all ammo was standard NATO 124gr military ball. All told, about 12,000 rounds were fired, spread basically evenly throughout each pistol, with the "classic" Sigs seeing less (instructors) - so, about 450 rounds per pistol. The pistols were given a wipe-down cleaning after day 1.

    Shooting ranged from standard qualification testing, to reloads, malfunction drills (using empty casings staggered randomly in mags), rapid fire strings, multiple targets, etc. The guns were run fairly hard, but not much harder than a typical IPSC match.

    Of the pistols, the issues were as follows:

    "Classic" Sigs - no issues at all.

    SigPro 2022s - no issues at all (except some of the CNP had just received their pistols, and their sights were drifted ALL THE WAY to one side or the other... )

    Glock 19s - during the malfunction drills, one G19 fed the empty casing (most other pistols would NOT do this), but it became wedged pretty firmly in the chamber. The pistol was disassembled and the barrel "boinked" out of the frame with a padded hammer tap. The tap broke a small piece off the base of the recoil spring guide rod. The pistol functioned perfectly for the rest of the day despite this minor damage. No other issues.

    Jericho 941s - the only "problem children." One was constantly giving double feeds, to we had the operator clean (it was pretty dirty) and lube it, and it got much better. A few others experienced occasional malfunctions - more than I would be comfortable with (which is basically ZERO), but not HORRIBLE.

    All in all I was very impressed, particularly with the SigPros. They were comfortable to shoot, accurate, and reliable - no failures in the entire batch, shooting approx 8,000 rounds. I had no real experience with the SigPro line before, and was very happy with their performance.

    Plus, two days on the range, with great weather and eager students, is ALWAYS a good thing!
    Last edited by OPFOR; August 27th, 2010 at 09:48 PM.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.


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    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    In a country not min ewhere I could not reliably get parts... iwould want a Classic Sig or a G19. The other two just arent battle proven enough for me. The Pros definitely have a following.
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    Distinguished Member Array Diddle's Avatar
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    Interesting information!

    Thanks for the post.
    Diddle
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    So you can fix a Glock with a hammer and it will still work broke. Interesting. Since I don't plan on loading "empty" cases, I guess I'm okay.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Thank You for your posting. Always great to review someone's range report but it's a special treat to read first-hand reports from an actual gun trial.
    Last edited by goldshellback; August 28th, 2010 at 10:21 AM.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Interesting observations, thank you for sharing. I always love seeing something that gives me yet more confidence in my P229.

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    Thanks for taking the time to keep such accurate track of the pistol performance and taking the additional time out to post it here.
    Much appreciated and much more highly valued than the vast majority of gun magazine type handgun testing.

    I especially like the fact that such a high number of pistols in the hands of all different shooters were involved.

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    You're welcome, folks. Another range day Monday - mostly react to contract drills and cover and evacuate live-fires. Will be a much lower round count, and will involve the subguns more. I'll try to throw up an AAR at some point...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    And would I be wrong to guess that the single P-228 was in your hands?

    The SigPros are some of the most underrated pistols out there. If I were ever forced to go polymer they would be my first choice.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

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    OPFOR thanks for your post.I can't wait to see the results from your next day of training.
    Have Fun and Shoot Straight !!

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    Sounds like a pretty good day, but it sounds like you under-fed your poor 228. I wanna hear about the subguns, its always a fun class of weapons to use. Always nice to get some outside of the box and outside the norm training, I'm sure the Columbians appreciated it.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    Member Array Viper7's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info although it's not too surprising. I had a 2022, and it was 100%, but I sold it because it just didn't fit me well. All my classic Sigs over the last thirty years, including the two I currently own, have performed flawlessly. BTW, my S&W 4586 will feed empty 45 cases all day, but I've never tried it in any of my other pistols.

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    Just got back from day three - attack scenarios and react to contact drills. Fewer rounds down range today, but better results - no issues with any of the pistols (except one person who limp-wristed a P229 - which he had never shot before - and caused a FTF). We had 8 subguns on the line, and 7 ran completely without issue (about 200 rds per). One went down hard - it was feeding properly, but pulling the trigger just resulted in a "click." No primer dent at all...cycled some rounds through, changed mags, no joy. One of the AIs took it apart, wiped the bolt down a bit, and it worked fine for the rest of the day. I didn't see the internals, so I don't know what the problem might have been, but it worked fine after the break-down.

    Got to do some practice with the Colombian Special Forces "Urban" Counter-Terror Unit as well (while the CNP was at lunch). Just some slow fire drills, fine-tuning their presentations, but cool none the less.

    Buckeye, what do you want to know about the subguns?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Well you should start with at least what type of subguns you were using, a lot of really cool options out there. Yeah, they might be pistol caliber, and therefor more underpowered than a rifle, but they are cool (Die Hard is my favorite Christmas movie, maybe I shouldn't watch it so much). Sounds like you are having a lot of fun at work these days brother. We get very little practice on subguns or pistols around here, as the M-4 has replaced almost any subgun use by grunts outside of special CQB units (and in some of those too). Although this week is all KD range shooting for me, and I got 12 out of 15 in the black at 500 today, so that made me happy.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    They are Colt 9mm subguns. And the M4 has replaced this weapon for us in large part, but they are still found here and there. At least all the Uzis are finally gone, I think!

    I like the subgun as well, for certain applications. Close protection has use for them - they are smaller, quieter, less likely to travel hundreds of yards and still be lethal, use the same ammo as the pistols, have very little recoil... For all around use, of course, the M4 is superior, but the subgun has its moments.

    I specifically like the Colt because it requires basically no retraining for those of us used to the AR platform, and it takes all the same accessories. It may not have the CDI factor of the MP5, but it gets the job done to my satisfaction.

    Have fun on the KD range - I have been shooting pistol calibers so much lately I am jonesing for some 100m + time!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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