so called 2nd rate ammo through your AR????

This is a discussion on so called 2nd rate ammo through your AR???? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Well as far as the accuracy goes that wouldnt be the highest concern for me when im just shooting at some paper or maybe a ...

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Thread: so called 2nd rate ammo through your AR????

  1. #31
    Member Array J0eyg86's Avatar
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    Well as far as the accuracy goes that wouldnt be the highest concern for me when im just shooting at some paper or maybe a few cans, now if i ever get more into competition shooting or the zombies come around then ill be a little more worried.
    im going to have to hightly consider this one thanks again for everyones advise

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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Something interesting is it isn't like 223 costs a lot. You are talking about differences between 20 good practice rounds costing $10 vs 20 steel case rounds costing $8 I don't know about the rest of you but since I reload practice rounds I don't burn through enough ammo when I practice to justify the cost savings. 120 rounds costs me about $33 when I reload. Many times I practice I only use 60 rounds or so during drills. 2 sets of drill completes the range visit.

    Now if your the shooter that goes to the range to make noise then the good stuff is a waste of money. I still urge you to use brass so I can pick it up after you are done..... only joking....
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array rmilchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Something interesting is it isn't like 223 costs a lot. You are talking about differences between 20 good practice rounds costing $10 vs 20 steel case rounds costing $8 I don't know about the rest of you but since I reload practice rounds I don't burn through enough ammo when I practice to justify the cost savings. 120 rounds costs me about $33 when I reload. Many times I practice I only use 60 rounds or so during drills. 2 sets of drill completes the range visit.

    Now if your the shooter that goes to the range to make noise then the good stuff is a waste of money. I still urge you to use brass so I can pick it up after you are done..... only joking....
    I reload 9mm and figure I save close to 50% VS purchasing ammo. I would have thought your savings would have been greater then what you are saying for 223. I buy 100 rounds of Hornady TAP steel for $30.

    http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produc...-55gr-fmj-ammo

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Something interesting is it isn't like 223 costs a lot. You are talking about differences between 20 good practice rounds costing $10 vs 20 steel case rounds costing $8 I don't know about the rest of you but since I reload practice rounds I don't burn through enough ammo when I practice to justify the cost savings. 120 rounds costs me about $33 when I reload. Many times I practice I only use 60 rounds or so during drills. 2 sets of drill completes the range visit.

    Now if your the shooter that goes to the range to make noise then the good stuff is a waste of money. I still urge you to use brass so I can pick it up after you are done..... only joking....
    $.4.95 at Dunham's or $230.00 a thousand at the last gun show.... lot less than 8 bucks.... n at 100 yards or less the Wolf is just as good to practice with as anything els, if you are going to varmint hunt then by all means the better ammo is a must.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  6. #35
    Member Array kdydak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Something interesting is it isn't like 223 costs a lot. You are talking about differences between 20 good practice rounds costing $10 vs 20 steel case rounds costing $8 I don't know about the rest of you but since I reload practice rounds I don't burn through enough ammo when I practice to justify the cost savings. 120 rounds costs me about $33 when I reload. Many times I practice I only use 60 rounds or so during drills. 2 sets of drill completes the range visit.
    Your prices seem way off (Add about $15 per 1k when shipping in quantity):

    $180 for 1k of Tula .223
    $200 for 1k of BB .223
    $280 for 1k of M193 5.56

    http://www.sgammo.com/product/surplu...teel-case-ammo
    http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...J55&groupid=21
    http://www.glensoutdoors.com/Federal...o-p/xm193f.htm

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Well, lets talk about that in detail. First, I "get" you spent that on an RRA during a time when prices were through the roof. I wasn't talking specifically about your RRA; didn't even know you had one. But in today's rifle prices, $1200 gets you a heck of a lot more gun then your RRA.

    As far as RRA making inferior guns, they use a collection of substandard parts, that would not make the minimum standard to produce a mil-spec rifle. The steel is not up to par, there is no individual testing of critical parts, and the assembly QA/QC is not consistent.

    As far as actually more like "if you open up a chamber to meet the actual specifications of the ammunition the gun was designed for". And by "open up", I mean ream it to be proper, rather than the incorrect chamber that most guns like RRA and Bushmasters come with. And the ream should only effect the neck and leade.

    And... Oh, yes. That DEA Contract. The DEA has trashed all their RRAs because after RRA actually giving them FOR FREE DEA guys actually took some out and shot them, and found out they were complete junk. But RRA has made lots of hay about that particular mistake by the DEA. I am unaware of any RRA guns still in use by the DEA.

    Coincidentally enough, I just went on an operation with some "Real World" DEA guys in Northern Afghanistan (Which is, as far as I can tell, in the "real world", and guess what? I didn't see a single RRA gun with them.

    You got anything else???
    Funny I seem to see a lot of XTC competitions won by guns with RRA parts, uppers and lower receivers... So CM (Continental Machine) builds crap (thats were RRA gets most of their receivers) that is not up to Mil Spec...well I guess that's a blessing to us civilians and unfortunately to the service a short coming. Perhaps you will enlighten us on the manufacture of the receivers and parts of the DEA guns you used on your op's so we can get some. They must have been who's, LMT...yes/no? They are on par with CM as well as a few others.

    I have only had the opportunity to know one DEA "guy" who was very helpful when I first started shooting XTC in the Southeast and helped me with my loads and technique. He has won many competitions and builds his AR's himself and has never voiced any objection to RRA receivers and parts to my knowledge.

    I don't believe the AMU shooters have any problem with RRA parts either. Since you are DEA and/or connected there to you can go into Ft. Benning any time and ask the armorers. Let us know as I try to stay up to date on what they are using.

    The only statement I can see you made accurately is the fact that the wylde chamber used in the RRA NM and used by many competition builders does have a different lead and free bore than the NATO chamber for long range accuracy not "rattle battle". So yes they can be choosy about feeding 3rd world ammo which would not be wise choice for clearing buildings and combat to 200 yds. in the 3rd world where you may have to use ammo of unknown origin from fallen opponents. Agreed

    If you will investigate you WILL discover the Camp Perry National Service Rifle Championship HAS been won with guns assembled from RRA receivers, bolts, carriers, pins, stocks etc. as well as many top place finishes there and untold state and regional championships.

    Lastly for the record I do NOT run any of this type ammo down my Krieger or McMillan (Harris) barrels. Oh, but wait, they are probably crap as well.
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  8. #37
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jem102 View Post
    Funny I seem to see a lot of XTC competitions won by guns with RRA parts, uppers and lower receivers... So CM (Continental Machine) builds crap (thats were RRA gets most of their receivers) that is not up to Mil Spec...well I guess that's a blessing to us civilians and unfortunately to the service a short coming. Perhaps you will enlighten us on the manufacture of the receivers and parts of the DEA guns you used on your op's so we can get some. They must have been who's, LMT...yes/no? They are on par with CM as well as a few others.

    <snip, to cut out a bunch of meaningless drivel>

    Lastly for the record I do NOT run any of this type ammo down my Krieger or McMillan (Harris) barrels. Oh, but wait, they are probably crap as well.
    Actually, I didn't mention any kind of "toy" ARs. And, yes, higpower and XTC is "hobby" class shooting. In fact, I couldn't give a crap less about what kind of play-time shooting one wants to do with a low-budget AR. Even a broken AR is useful as a doorstop, after all.

    As few rounds as those guys actually shoot, nearly any AR would work just fine. Weaknesses in lower quality ARs like RRA, DPMS and Bushmaster only become evident when they are used as originally designed; specifically in combat, or combat-style shooting (practice or competition.) In fact, it's much cheaper to build an accurate AR than a reliable AR, and those lower tier companies bank on that, literally.

    When your typical hobbyist talks about tiny three shot groups, a serious user looks at how well the gun holds up during 1000 rounds downrange in a day. It's "possible" that even the cheapest ARs will hold up for 1000 rounds in a relatively period of time, but it is much less likely than if one had a competently built gun and it is necessary to pay actual money for that kind of reliability.

    On cheap ammo. A serious user of the AR platform will easily save the equivalent of the cost of an arms room worth of rifles over the life of the gun if you shoot using the cheap stuff. And no, .22lr does not have all the training value of .223 or 5.56, though it does have utility for basic accuracy improvement work.

    I didn't mean to insult your range toy hobby gun in this thread. Feel free to add the caveat that my advice does not apply to toys or target guns.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Actually, I didn't mention any kind of "toy" ARs. And, yes, higpower and XTC is "hobby" class shooting. In fact, I couldn't give a crap less about what kind of play-time shooting one wants to do with a low-budget AR. Even a broken AR is useful as a doorstop, after all.

    As few rounds as those guys actually shoot, nearly any AR would work just fine. Weaknesses in lower quality ARs like RRA, DPMS and Bushmaster only become evident when they are used as originally designed; specifically in combat, or combat-style shooting (practice or competition.) In fact, it's much cheaper to build an accurate AR than a reliable AR, and those lower tier companies bank on that, literally.

    When your typical hobbyist talks about tiny three shot groups, a serious user looks at how well the gun holds up during 1000 rounds downrange in a day. It's "possible" that even the cheapest ARs will hold up for 1000 rounds in a relatively period of time, but it is much less likely than if one had a competently built gun and it is necessary to pay actual money for that kind of reliability.

    On cheap ammo. A serious user of the AR platform will easily save the equivalent of the cost of an arms room worth of rifles over the life of the gun if you shoot using the cheap stuff. And no, .22lr does not have all the training value of .223 or 5.56, though it does have utility for basic accuracy improvement work.

    I didn't mean to insult your range toy hobby gun in this thread. Feel free to add the caveat that my advice does not apply to toys or target guns.
    Well you have explained two things:

    1. You have no idea what National Match competition, Rattle Battle (or 3 gun for that matter) is and/or about and/or the level of the people including all the military service teams and even some DEA "guys" involved.

    2. You have no clue as to who actually manufactures Mil-Spec (or better) AR components and/or what those specs are and/or or how to apply them as to longevity, fit and function for any kind AR platform and/or what's involved in the assembly of a top line AR.

    You certainly haven't insulted me and neither of my AR's made a peep at the table this morning...however I did notice a new slogan on the wall behind them under the "Home Sweet Home" decoration..."Mattel, That's Swell" LOL...
    "You go get em partner!"
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  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    Something interesting is it isn't like 223 costs a lot. You are talking about differences between 20 good practice rounds costing $10 vs 20 steel case rounds costing $8 I don't know about the rest of you but since I reload practice rounds I don't burn through enough ammo when I practice to justify the cost savings. 120 rounds costs me about $33 when I reload. Many times I practice I only use 60 rounds or so during drills. 2 sets of drill completes the range visit.

    Now if your the shooter that goes to the range to make noise then the good stuff is a waste of money. I still urge you to use brass so I can pick it up after you are done..... only joking....
    Wolf or Silver Bear .223 is on average over $100 less per 1000 rounds than the least expensive US made brass cased ammo. I shoot on average 6-8K rounds per year.......savings 6-8 hundred dollars per year!

    Go to AIM or Sportsman Guide for example and do a price check.....your number are way off. $300 plus shipping for the least expensive brass cased .223 is expensive as far as I am concerned.

    "120 rounds costs me about $33 when I reload". This is still 27.5 cent a round.

    I can get Wolf at Sportsmans Guide (Member price) for $202 per 1000 rounds and then add a $10 off coupon.

    This averages less than 21 cent a round. And I do not have to spend my valuable time loading this caliber.


    As far as accuracy......for tactical training purposes or 3 gun matches with the AR platform it makes no percievable difference. A good shooter using steel cased ammo can out shoot an average shooter using brass any day. I do it all the time.
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  11. #40
    Member Array J0eyg86's Avatar
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    thanks again for all the info about ammo and especially everyone’s personal experience, sometimes i think personal experience is more important than any study but that’s just me. it was mentioned about a .22 conversion it and i had looked at those but i was also looking at the manufactured .22 AR rifles. Price aside b/c i know a conversion kit would be a little cheaper i may just go with a manufactured .22 AR for a few bucks more. (when i save the money that is)

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    $.4.95 at Dunham's or $230.00 a thousand at the last gun show.... lot less than 8 bucks.... n at 100 yards or less the Wolf is just as good to practice with as anything els, if you are going to varmint hunt then by all means the better ammo is a must.
    Quote Originally Posted by kdydak View Post
    Your prices seem way off (Add about $15 per 1k when shipping in quantity):

    $180 for 1k of Tula .223
    $200 for 1k of BB .223
    $280 for 1k of M193 5.56

    http://www.sgammo.com/product/surplu...teel-case-ammo
    http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...J55&groupid=21
    http://www.glensoutdoors.com/Federal...o-p/xm193f.htm
    My mistake. I checked and the steel cased ammunition I referenced was wolf 55gr hollow point not FMJ. Regardless of that..... prices may vary from store to store... and mail order is almost always going to be cheaper.

    I got back from a gun shop today, they had....
    $8.99 for 20 brass cased .223 55 gr FMJ
    $5.49 for 20 steel cased 55gr FMJ wolf.
    $7.99 for 20 steel cased 55gr HP wolf.
    They also had brass 55gr bulk packs 250 = $89.99
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array ks kid's Avatar
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    I only shoot lake city in mine. Check the manufactures website and see what they reccomend. I have a DPMS and they give a list of ammo manuf. that should not be shot. I follow their reccomendations. A buddy of mine developed a bad crack in his upper and all he shot was laquared ammo, but he did not clean it either.

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