If these are real facts

This is a discussion on If these are real facts within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; the anti's should read them. http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp...

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Thread: If these are real facts

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    If these are real facts

    the anti's should read them.


    http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    The problem with this sort of one-sided facts presentation is that the case could easily be made by the antis that murders plummeted in DC after the assault weapons ban. The graph in this link would show a dramatic decline from 1994 to 2004, especially from 1998-2002.

    Violent crime rates are way more complicated in cause than these simple "facts" as presented by either side.

  4. #3
    Member Array BigFish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    The problem with this sort of one-sided facts presentation is that the case could easily be made by the antis that murders plummeted in DC after the assault weapons ban. The graph in this link would show a dramatic decline from 1994 to 2004, especially from 1998-2002.
    I think putting all the facts out there is definitely more sensible. Not all the facts are necessarily in our favor when viewed alone. Certainly more research is needed to identify exactly why that is, but it does look like for a short period after gun bans were implemented there was a drop, then a large spike. I don't see the graphs as one sided. Overall, they certainly do show how over time, gun bans do seem to cause murders to go up. When concealed carry laws are adopted, they go back down.
    "Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense."
    Ron Paul.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    The problem with this sort of one-sided facts presentation is that the case could easily be made by the antis that murders plummeted in DC after the assault weapons ban. The graph in this link would show a dramatic decline from 1994 to 2004, especially from 1998-2002.

    Violent crime rates are way more complicated in cause than these simple "facts" as presented by either side.
    Quote Originally Posted by dstringf View Post
    I think putting all the facts out there is definitely more sensible. Not all the facts are necessarily in our favor when viewed alone. Certainly more research is needed to identify exactly why that is, but it does look like for a short period after gun bans were implemented there was a drop, then a large spike. I don't see the graphs as one sided. Overall, they certainly do show how over time, gun bans do seem to cause murders to go up. When concealed carry laws are adopted, they go back down.



    Crime and Self-Defense




    * Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms.[11]



    * A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]



    * Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[13] [14] [15] Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[16]



    * Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]



    * A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]



    * A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]



    * A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]



    • 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"



    • 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"



    • 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]



    * Click here to see why the following commonly cited statistic does not meet Just Facts' Standards of Credibility: "In homes with guns, the homicide of a household member is almost 3 times more likely to occur than in homes without guns."

    Can't get the link to quite come up, go to site to click on the click here and see the how they obtained the reults they (antis) were looking for

    Here is what is seen with the click

    * "In homes with guns, the homicide of a household member is almost 3 times more likely to occur than in homes without guns."[12] [13]



    * Reasons for elimination: This statistic is based on a three-county study comparing households in which a homicide occurred to demographically similar households in which a homicide did not occur. After controlling for several variables, the study found that gun ownership was associated with a 2.7 times increase in the odds of homicide.[14] This study does not meet Just Facts' Standards of Credibility because:



    1) The study blurs cause and effect. As explained in a comprehensive analysis of firearm research conducted by the National Research Council, gun control studies such as this (known as "case-control" studies) "fail to address the primary inferential problems that arise because ownership is not a random decision. ... Homicide victims may possess firearms precisely because they are likely to be victimized."[15]



    2) The study's results are highly sensitive to uncertainties in the underlying data. For example, minor variations in firearm ownership rates (which are determined by interview and are thus dependent upon interviewees' honesty) can negate the results.[16] [17]



    3) The results are arrived at by subjecting the raw data to statistical analyses instead of letting the data speak for itself. (For reference, the raw data of this study shows that households in which a homicide occurred had a firearm ownership rate of 45% as compared to 36% for non-homicide households. Also, households in which a homicide occurred were twice as likely have a household member who was previously arrested (53% vs. 23%), five times more likely to have a household member who used illicit drugs (31% vs. 6%), and five times more likely to have a household member who was previously hit or hurt during a fight in the home (32% vs. 6%).[18])
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    When I am arguing a point I selectively choose the facts that support my argument. When I am educating myself I go for as much knowledge as I can acquire.

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