My silly thought about LEOS versus GGs holding BGs at gunpoint
This is a discussion on My silly thought about LEOS versus GGs holding BGs at gunpoint within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This could have gone in defensive scenarios or LEO discussion but it deserves a broader audience.
We all agree that holding a BG at gunpoint ...
March 4th, 2011 05:19 PM
My silly thought about LEOS versus GGs holding BGs at gunpoint
This could have gone in defensive scenarios or LEO discussion but it deserves a broader audience.
We all agree that holding a BG at gunpoint when the LEOs show up may get us shot. Not arguing that point.
But why? Are LEOs that full of the Koolaid that they truly believe all guns are bad guns when they arrive at a shooting? Sadly, this is true quite often as evidenced by some of the news stories that are collected here. I understand wanting to control the scene, and of course a loose weapon is uncontrolled, but is the big hammer approach really necessary?
So lets reverse the scenario. How often, if ever, have LEOs arrived on scene to find a BG holding someone at gunpoint? I would imagine that a BG would find a way to be unarmed or somewhere else if he knew the LEOs would be featuring him in their next dash cam death match cinematic release.
Therefore would it not be reasonable to assume that an unknown actor holding another unknown actor at gun point is a GG or at least a wild card absent other factors? No need to go in guns blazing unless that armed person displays an overtly hostile and unprovoked act against LEOs or others.
I'd like to hear what LEOs think about this.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
March 4th, 2011 05:24 PM
I would think that the nature of the call would give some indication, "Citizen holding felon at gunpoint." Even absent that, no cops that I know would come in guns blazing, until they find out what is going on or get shot at. No doubt that they will want control of all weapons until they straighten things out, which would no doubt be orders to place all weapons on the ground.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
March 4th, 2011 10:19 PM
Any assumption on who is good or who is bad is just that, an assumption. Disarming the armed people and then sort it out. Easier to make an informed decision on who is going to jail when threat of imminent death is off the table.
The biggest threat to life is the gun pointed at someone whether good or bad.
March 4th, 2011 10:41 PM
The best thing you can do in that situation, is follow all orders to the letter and quickly!
You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
Retired DE Trooper, SA XD40 SC, S&W 2" Airweight
dukalmighty & Pure Kustom Black Ops Pro "Trooper" Holsters, DE CCDW and LEOSA Permits, Vietnam Vet 68-69 Pleiku
March 4th, 2011 10:51 PM
We have a set procedure at our house. If a BG gets in the house, my wife will be with the kids in the designated safe room (the Master bedroom) and she will call 911 and give them a description of me, what I am wearing and that i am armed. Hopefully this will help.
She has joked that perhaps she should simply tell them that theres a dead guy in the front room and her husband is yelling at him. She cracks me up.
March 5th, 2011 02:34 AM
Deploy the sash, NOW!!!!!
I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!
"Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"
March 5th, 2011 04:39 AM
Cops have disarmed plain clothes cops...Its not a gg vs bg issue..uniform cops prefer to be the only ones with the guns until the situation is determined...believe me if I am in an area where I don't know the officer arriving on the scene, my gun will not be in my hand for long when they get there..I have said this time and time again don't take this kind of thing personal and believe that you are being considered a bad guy..It is what it is...
"Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams
March 5th, 2011 05:15 AM
I guess from the GG standpoint, not being a LEO that is, this is just one more reason for me to make sure I don't follow the advice of some folks about not giving any statements to the police etc.
If you can't communicate effectively enough with the dispatcher to let them know who you are, the basics of what has happened along with descriptions, then in my view the call to 911 might simply be adding fuel to the fire.
There are instances where LEO's have entered onto a scene and the BG still has a gun in hand and is holding innocent people at gun point. However in these scenarios the caller on the line to 911 will probably be saying that the guy with the gun is the BG. I certainly hope that LEO's responding to the scene of a call like that act somewhat differently than they do when they respond to a call about a defensive action and they person with the gun does everything requested of the LEO once on scene.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.www.ddchl.com
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
March 5th, 2011 07:22 AM
I can imagine some LEO tension/concern/confusion from the urgent call and sketchy information of shot's fired, MWAG in the shadows of a convenience store parking lot at 2 am. That would be a situation that you wouldn't want to let escalate.
Originally Posted by paramedic70002
Years ago I was involved in the unanticipated situation of holding two guys at gun point, stretched out on the road, in the middle of a State Hwy, in the middle of the day. I was dressed in work clothes and driving a pickup. About 5 patrol cars rolled up at once, all of the officers headed straight for the two BG's. I remained in position until the officers had adequate physical control of them. When it was no longer necessary I walked over to my truck and put my shotgun inside the cab.
No one "took me down," screamed at me, or indicated anything that made them think I might be a threat as well. These two BG's were loose and being actively searched for at the time (LEO's about a mile away), so I clearly didn't match the description of the two men they wanted. Due to the circumstances the LEO's instinctively knew who was who.
March 5th, 2011 07:50 AM
Body language,location, time of day, manner of dress, what information makes it through the dispatchers to the dispacted units, nature of the call and amount of time it took the officers to arrive on scene are all going to create variables.
There is a subtle difference in body language expressed by a person who is protecting himself and a person who is an aggressor - it is NOT easy to pick up most of the time. I would submit that you have to weigh the odds, and do everything you can to create a picture for the arriving LEO's depicting you as the "good guy"
Some of the things I would recomend:
1) if you dress like a thug (insert other types of people commonly arrested) maybe you should change your personal appearance
2) use your support hand by pointing your palm towards who ever you are holding at guard/gunpoint in a controlling, but non threatening manner
3) dont point your weapon directly at them if the situation allows you - a low guard, weapons retention or low ready may be appropriate
4) if you can holster safely before or as the police arrive, do so
5) do what the uniformed officers tell you to, do it slowly and deliberately, DO NOT ARGUE.
6) good luck.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
March 5th, 2011 09:02 AM
Just a guess here, but I think it's rare that a BG holds a victim at gunpoint until the LEOs arrive. Just my thought.
In the event I find it necessary to hold a BG at gunpoint (more likely) until the LEOs arrive, I'll gladly disarm and go facedown and let them assume responsibility for sorting out who is whom. I doubt they'll charge in, guns blazing, and try to figure out which body is the BG afterwards.
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
March 5th, 2011 01:36 PM
If you find yourself holding someone at gunpoint when the police arrive, remember, don't talk to the cops, ever! Make sure they know that you do not consent to a search and repeatedly ask if you are being detained.
All kidding aside, My mom used to work as a dispatcher, so we have a few family friends who are police officers or retired police officers. To my knowledge, not a single one of them has had to shoot at someone. I find it hard to believe, in my area at least, that any of the police officers would come in guns blazing, considering I don't know one cop who has even had to shoot at a BG.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. - Rule #23 in the USMC rules for gunfighting.
March 6th, 2011 12:46 PM
It's not a question of belief it's the fact of adrenaline pounding through any human being when they see a gun out and pointed at someone else which could also shoot them in a half-second. It's a dangerous situation - play it smart. Get rid of the gun, on the ground, before cops arrive.
Originally Posted by paramedic70002
March 6th, 2011 02:15 PM
Before you put your gun away it may be safest to to shoot the BG, if not you maybe should have left it holstered to begin with.
Originally Posted by hamlet
LEARN something today so you can TEACH something tomorrow.
Dominus Vobiscum <))>( Where is the wisdom that we have lost in knowledge?" T.S. Elliot
March 6th, 2011 09:51 PM
I'm not holding anyone at gunpoint. My job isn't to arrest, hold or question an intruder. My job is to protect myself and my family, and that's best done by getting the intruder out of my house as soon as possible. If I encounter an intruder inside my home I'll immediately order him to leave and if he doesn't, he'll wish he had. When the police arrive I'll give them a description and tell them which way he went.
Do unto others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets. (Matt. 7:12)
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