Just had a thought and want some opinions
This is a discussion on Just had a thought and want some opinions within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Harryball,
Generally, I would say yes, I was the exception rather than the rule. In addition to that and your comment re gun guys in ...
June 4th, 2011 04:39 PM
Generally, I would say yes, I was the exception rather than the rule. In addition to that and your comment re gun guys in LE, I believe that guys working violent high crime areas took it more seriously than those working in more benign areas. I view it similar to staying sharp in the field. It is much easier to do working a high crime area with frequent violent encounters, than it is working an area of low crime and infrequent violent encounters. The perception is not will it happen, but when will it happen
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
June 4th, 2011 04:39 PM
June 4th, 2011 05:22 PM
I fully understand and appreciate your opinion on this. It would seem that context plays a bigger role than most would admit. Were I get concerned is in a pretty calm enviroment officers get comfortable, I understand the human nature of things, but they need to step it up. We ahd a shooting In East Lansing involveing some gang bangers I can only hope that it is taking serious from this point forward.
Originally Posted by Guantes
June 4th, 2011 05:31 PM
While I have never met Guantes in person, I am familiar with him over the years on various forums. He is, IMHO, the real deal and there isn't a single person here who can't stand to benefit from his wisdom and thoughts. Especially in the realm of street combat. His very concept of when/then thinking exemplifies this.
On the matter of this topic I believe that Guantes always handled his business seriously. So he worked harder than most and made sure he was a 5%er. As such his skill level was well above the lowest common denominator we see too much of out there on the streets. Both cops and civilians. When you train well above the LCD benchmark, the odds are much higher that your performance will be well above the LCD benchmark when crunch time comes. It's that simple.
Of course he also had the benefit of having experienced the for real adrenaline rushes that real confrontations entail. A little innoculation to them never hurts the cause.
Training in which you have to run from point A to point B, and do some pushups along the way, does not replicate real stress. Because there is nothing about doing that which puts you at risk of death or injury. And your mind knows that. Innoculating yourself by doing things which could result in you getting killed or hurt, now that's some real mental preparation.
June 4th, 2011 06:02 PM
Thanks Chad, appreciate the kind words.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
June 4th, 2011 06:29 PM
I'd say that it is because a gun-fight is something that can never really be duplicated in training, and until you have been placed in that situation, it is hard to understand. Even in FoF training, you have the knowledge in the back of your mind that even if you get hit, you are still alive. The vast majority of people base their views of what a gunfight is like off of popular culture (TV, movies, video games), because they have no other source of information to base it off of.
I personally would be shocked if my unit had a 20% hit percentage in our engagements. I know for a fact that I personally didn't. Of course, in a military engagement, a lot of rounds fired are also for suppression, to allow another element to maneuver to a more advantageous position.
But, add in the chemical cocktail your body gives you, increased heart rate, the fact that you are moving, shooting in less than ideal positions and at less than ideal angles, the terror that is in your mind from rounds cracking over your head, and everything else, and 20% would seem like an awfully high hit rate to you.
The military does do some training that is designed to reduce the social stigma of killing (shooting at human shaped targets and terminology), but the gravity of it never really hit me while I was engaged, but afterwards. At the time I was worried about staying alive, keeping my guys alive, and ending the threat to us however I could, there wasn't time to think about what I was doing in a moral sense during the engagements.
And to answer Ontarget's question, I have seen the elephant.
June 4th, 2011 11:33 PM
Training, practice, muscle memory, mind set, and the effects of adrenalin...one never knows how the plan will be played.
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
June 5th, 2011 01:14 AM
Thanks to everyone for the replies, especially Gauntes and Buckeye. Thanks to both of y'all for your service.
June 5th, 2011 01:27 AM
Men have stood face to face 3 or 4 feet apart in real life gunfights and emptied their guns as fast as they could pull the trigger with not one person being hit. Now that isn't just a matter of poor marksmanship.
To shoot while experiencing what is known as full body alarm mode is something to be experienced in order to be truly appreciated.
To be so full of raw fear and startle effect that you knees feel like jello and your hands are shaking like you have malaria, you may have evacuated your bowels and or bladder and sweat is pouring out of you like a garden hose is something which is hard to replicate outside of actually being in combat. Yet for some people it can be that dramatic.
Then there is the adrenaline factor, although I find that unless you have had sufficient enough warning of the incident, the effects are not always immediate, but can also be a factor depending on the situation.
It is always good practice to place yourself in some sort of body stress just before shooting to get used to the concept. If you are fortunate to have a place to shoot on private property somewhere where there is some space, try doing a couple 40 - 50 yard wind sprints, 20 sit-ups, and 20 push-ups, then immediately step up to the line and shoot a target at 7 yards and let us know how your shot groups look. I think you'll be a little surprised to say the least.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
June 5th, 2011 11:14 AM
"First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
Edge of Darkness
June 5th, 2011 12:15 PM
Ive seen the elephant. The full body alarm response is bad, but not that bad. Training and muscle memory are very important as well as mindset. Do not underestimate good training. I think In the end, it is a difference maker.
June 5th, 2011 03:01 PM
I know that when I do drills on speed draw and fire, my accuracy suffers on the first shot. It's something I need to work on.
I've never been in a gunfight or shot anyone but I've been around when a couple of gunfights erupted, and a several occasions where I had to respond to armed suspects. I am quite satisfied with my response to these situations.
I've also made the call to stop resuscitation on more occasions than I can recall. I know where I'm going when I die. Death doesn't bother me.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
June 6th, 2011 12:20 AM
99% of it is inside your head.............on a gun range I qualified "expert", but that's under "controlled" conditions............
under pressure, in a life & death situation with a platoon of enemy firing to kill you, the adrenaline is pumped, you're constantly moving, dodging, running and firing.........my opinion is
the more you fire at somebody, the better you get over time.
I can't think of a more "pressured" situation than wearing a military uniform and facing scores of idiots with guns!
June 6th, 2011 01:35 AM
Shooting accurately is done through a complex linkage, using timing as well as trigger control. When you pull out in traffic, your eyes and brain are triangulating speed of traffic, distance and continuously recalculating a complex physics equation - yet you don't realize it. Now imagine you're standing there and you are startled by a loud noise and turn and see a blur charging at you. Many people would try to turn and put sight on that threat, but your brain, getting 'ahead' of the action, contracts your finger muscle and the first shot goes into the ceiling. Imagine you are being chased by a pack of dogs and you're trying to get your key in the front door of your house in shadow, shaking like a leaf, and a task you did with ease becomes almost impossible.
That's why I suggest you think of carrying a little more ammo/mags than you'd guess, since you may only hit 2 out of 5 shots, carrying a 20 rd mag will only get you 8 hits. If there are three BGs, that's barely enough and now you're out. You'll prob hit more than that but it's a conservative estimate.
...just some random thoughts on the issues here.
June 6th, 2011 02:25 AM
Back when I was an LEO on range day where the department furnished 100 rounds of 38 spl for practice,out of roughly 50 uniformed officers I seriously doubt if more than 20 showed up sometimes and about 10 showed up every month.the rest just qualified every 6 months,Qualification was 32 out of 48 shots on the sihouette,some people barely got 32 hits on the target and that was a non moving non stress situation
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
June 6th, 2011 03:25 AM
I doubt it's 20% ..... sounds way too high from what I've seen and numbers I've seen in the past.
Two officers shot 68 shots at a guy 10 ft away ..... and hit him "once" in the leg. They were all dancing around a lot, ducking, etc. The houses behind the BG had a lot of holes in them though, so they can hit a house.
Defensive shooting is NOT target shooting, get that out of your head. A "target shooter" is the worse defensive shooter, IMHO. They are accustomed to "sighting" and the target standing still, none of which occurs in a gun fight. That's what 'point shooting' and other techniques are all about. IN a gun fight, alot of people throw a lot of lead around. I also learned techniques that no one seems to teach anymore, which is a pattern shooting for a running target, where you shoot so that they run into the path of the bullet ... rather than trying to "lead" and trying to play catch up when they miss.
There is a reason that the Army , etc. used to drill breaking down your weapon blindfolded and putting it back together while a Sgt is screaming at you and you are on a time limit.
Part of the "practice" is knowning your gun so well, how it functions , etc. that you can do it without thinking about it at all, and without even looking at it.... so in a stressful situation, it will be automatic to you.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."