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1911 article from Air Force Times.

6K views 39 replies 17 participants last post by  OD* 
#1 · (Edited)
The 411 on 1911: With patience and a budget, you can own the .45 of your dreams

If you’re about to surrender to the 100-year-old call of John Moses Browning, we’re here to help. You can probably count as many Model 1911 configurations as stars in the sky, so to make sense of all the choices, we enlisted a guy who knows his way around the 1911 like Darrell Waltrip knows his way around Daytona.

As the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta’s primary firearms instructor, Larry Vickers worked in a place that put more than a million rounds a year through 1911s.

He’s a founding member of the International Defensive Pistol Association and also a member of the American Pistolsmiths Guild.

When he says he’s seen everything that can go wrong with a 1911, I believe him.
The 411 on 1911: With patience and a budget, you can own the .45 of your dreams - Off Duty, Technology - Air Force Times

Nice rundown of desirable mods to personalize a 1911. One thing I disagree with though, I would NEVER trade a 1911 for a Glock. :gah:
 
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#3 ·
I would trade a 1911 for a glock anyday, if I were going yo really need the reliability and maintenance free benefits. I have put my glock through things that would have caused total seize up on the 1911.
Don't get me wrong, the 1911 is one of my favorite guns. It's a classic, it has history, it's a classic. A mil spec that is a little loose and fed ball is very reliable.... But my Glocks are even more so. And they don't need to be pampered, or special care.
 
#6 ·
Well, certainly Vickers knows more about the 1911 than I do, and I actually owned one of his builds. But my own experience with them has not really mirrored whats in the article. Of the ones I have owned, high end to off the shelf, imo the regular Colt Gov model has been one of my favorites. It runs well, shoots well, and is reliable. Of course I have a definite predjudice for Colt Gov models, and feel they are the top of the line regardless of other high end makes. I do not think they demand the work to keep them running as was described in the article. Basic maintenance is all required. But, I now prefer the Glock for serious use even over my favorite revolvers due to the same reasons. Capacity, weight and rust proof.

Right now, am negotiating over a mint Colt w/parkeraized finish made in 1974. No frills, just a good solid fighting gun.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Me too OD*.

I'm so pitiful that stuff like this represents the .45 of my dreams. My first 1911 that I got for myself for my 21st birthday in 1978. It recently returned to duty after being out of action with a missing front sight. Do you know how hard it is to find a correct thin-blade half moon sight as would be proper on a 1918 vintage Colt 1911? It never bobbles and has never jammed but the front sight slung off after 90 years.
 
#10 ·
Me too OD*.

I'm so pitiful that stuff like this represents the .45 of my dreams. My first 1911 that I got for myself for my 21st birthday in 1987. It recently returned to duty after being out of action with a missing front sight. Do you know how hard it is to find a correct thin-blade half moon sight as would be proper on a 1918 vintage Colt 1911? It never bobbles and has never jammed but the front sight slung off after 90 years.
This is my idea of the perfect 1911.
 
#8 ·
I own 4 1911 pistols 3 in 45 acp one in 44 mag,I don't own any glocks,the 1911 went through 3 wars as the primary sidearm of US Troops,I also own several Tupperware pistols,SAxd9,M&P45c.I carry a 1911 all the time,but have holsters for most of my handguns
 
#9 ·
Whatever punches your primer. I must be an old fuddy-duddy. My EDC is stock. I've been spoiled behind a nice SA trigger too long. I'm not bashing, but I doubt a safe trigger could get the best of Tangle with his Kimber. Just saying...do what's right by you, and have confidence.

Nice picture, bmc!
 
#38 ·
...I must be an old fuddy-duddy. My EDC is stock.
I must be an old fuddy-duddy too, again I might add. I went from the Glock and some other platforms and after not finding a gun that met what I was looking for, I re-fuddy-dudded. :ticking: My EDC is stock also, and gonna stay that way. Well, I did tweak the trigger a wee bit. :embarassed:

...I've been spoiled behind a nice SA trigger too long.
I've shot DAO, DAK, DA/SA, SAO in all kinds of guns. When I shot the guy's Kimber at the range, I realized what I was looking for that I hadn't found. It was there all the time.

...I'm not bashing, but I doubt a safe trigger could get the best of Tangle with his Kimber.
That's kind, and I can say that I find my Kimbers awfully easy to shoot and hit with. I did some stuff last week at the range with my Kimber Tactical Pro that I don't believe I've ever been able to do.

The facts are: 1911s are reliable, rugged, accurate, and easy to shoot. Here's another fact: somebody said Glocks, and this is not a put-down on Glocks but a defense of the 1911, are available in more calibers. Those calibers would be: 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 cal., .45 ACP, .45 GAP, and 10mm. 1911s have been chambered for 9mm, .40 cal, .45 ACP, 38 super, 10mm, .50 cal, and maybe one or two others I've forgotten. That looks about even to me.

There's also the stereotype that 1911s have to be loose to be reliable and tight to be accurate. Todays 1911s are both tight and reliable. They've been thrown in creeks, retrieved, shaken off, and shot until the slide locks back. Todd Jarrott ran 1000 rounds through one as fast as he could - no breaks - no cooling down, no 're-lubing' and it never missed a shot. It got so hot that Todd could hardly hold it.

And this is not a Glock put down, just a report of what happened. James Yeager did the same 1000 round thing with a G19 and had three failures and the guide rod melted. I'm not saying that's typical or that Glocks aren't a good gun, they certainly are, but what happened, happened.

Like it or not, the 1911 is the most popular gun on earth. Pick up any gun magazine and you'll almost be assured to find at least one 1911 article and very likely one will be on the cover. Why? Because it sells magazines.

1911s are made by more manufacturers than any other brand on earth, and it isn't even close. And let us not kid ourselves, gun people don't keep buying 1911s knowing they'll have to put $1000 in them to get them to work right. They keep buying them because the work right out of the box and will continue to do so when they're passed on to their grandkids.
 
#12 ·
I guess that I'm the most ignorant of all.

I went and bought a Taurus 1911, silly me :twak:

I'm glad that I'm too stupid to know that it shouldn't work as well as it does. Over 2,000 and no malfs, yet
 
#14 ·
I also TOTALLY agree with that article that even folks who buy a Les Baer or an Ed Brown or a WILSON...will STILL have to spend yet ANOTHER thousand dollars with a qualified gunsmith in order to get their respective 1911 pistols to run properly.

Hey...I'm NOT talking out of my ass here. :hand5:

You are stupid enough to buy a Les Baer or an Ed Brown or a WILSON without just automatically having that extra $GRANDE LARGE$ available in order to get it to run.

Don't even think about actually carrying it for personal protection until you sink AT LEAST an additional Thousand Bones into it.

I'm warning you all...the 1911 WILL fail on you right at that split second when your slab of bacon is Hanging In The Balance. :dead:

You may disagree with me but, please understand that I'm an expert when it comes to 1911s...so you had best heed my dire warning.

I'm just trying hard to keep you guys from earning a skull & crossbones tag on your big toe if you're unwilling to spend all of those extra beans in order to get your slab-sided firearm up to snuff.

Either spend the bucks or just keep the 1911 for informal Sunday afternoon plinking on Aunt Bessie's farm & go get a Glock for serious street business.

You probably won't believe this but, I swear it's true....I personally know of AT LEAST 8 Concealed Carry people who are now worm food and pushing up daisies because their respective high-dollar 1911s couldn't cut the mustard when the chips went down.

They would all be alive today if they had kept that pitiful, worthless, junker 1911 in the gun safe and carried a Glock.
 
#15 ·
Just got this totally embarrassing word directly from COLT Firearms.

Of all of the COLT Manufacture pistols (all variations) produced by COLT in the past 10 years an UNREAL 97% of them needed an immediate emergency trip to a custom gunsmith (with a LONG waiting list) and aproximately $10,000 in additional money sunk into each pistol in order to get them to operate as efficiently as a Glock. :rant:

How can COLT possibly stay in business with a dismal track record like that? :confused:

And furthermore...how can I possibly remain a DC forum moderator for very much longer posting BS like this?

Oh...I forgot...It's the Internet :yup: ...we can post whatever we want to type no matter if it's true or not.
 
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#16 · (Edited)
"In combat, modern pistol designs have made the 1911 obsolete. It’s finicky and demands constant attention that a war fighter can’t afford to offer ... Warnings aside, the pistol’s appeal is strong and romantic, not tactical. Picking up the pistol feels like shaking hands with John Wayne…" I am wordless! But, if Vickers says it then it must be true :rolleyes:



The 411 on 1911: With patience and a budget, you can own the .45 of your dreams - Off Duty, Technology - Air Force Times

Nice rundown of desirable mods to personalize a 1911. One thing I disagree with though, I would NEVER trade a 1911 for a Glock. :gah:
I would never trade a good 1911 for ANY pistol. I must be sooo weird because I trust my life to a 1911.



My GOD, I am so tragically unhip.
Good to know that I am not the only one!




Me too OD*.

I'm so pitiful that stuff like this represents the .45 of my dreams. My first 1911 that I got for myself for my 21st birthday in 1987. It recently returned to duty after being out of action with a missing front sight. Do you know how hard it is to find a correct thin-blade half moon sight as would be proper on a 1918 vintage Colt 1911? It never bobbles and has never jammed but the front sight slung off after 90 years.
That is sooo sweet! Congrats lucky guy! :hand10:
 
#17 ·
I have a lot of respect for Larry Vickers, but after reading that article, I felt like he was doing a little selling.

"If you want a 1911 that will go a million rounds a year, you need what Larry uses".
 
#18 ·
trade a 1911 for a glock is using words to create obscenity, the very thought is aberrant.
its....its, repellent. to rescind that written statement , well, nothing less than repealing
the written word would be neces
 
#19 ·
You're making me feel bad QK, out of the current 17 1911s (yep, added another to the herd), I have one that I needed to buy an EGW HD magazine catch to help lift the magazines a little higher to reliably feed Gold Dots. I'm ashamed I've neglected the others so badly.


Oh yeah, thanks for the tip on the Les Baer's, I shall not carry that crappy TRS anymore!!!
 
#21 ·
See...now that's EXACTLY what I'm talkin' about. I know for a fact that you own 17 1911 pistols BUT, you needed to buy a magazine catch for one of them.
You admit it!
And I just checked their web site and the Evolution Gun Works magazine catch is on sale and priced at slightly less than a thousand dollars. With shipping and insurance it's $1,000.00
Add to that yet another thousand for the overly busy gunsmith to do the professional custom magazine catch installation and you're already up at 2 Grand just for just that one pistol.
 
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#20 ·
I don't slam Glocks. I think they are wonderful ultra-reliable reasonably priced handguns. They are incredible pistols but, they did not get their reliability at the expense of the reliability of all other handguns. The Mona Lisa is a phenomenal painting but, that does not mean that every other painting by every other artist is a piece of crap. There are other paintings equally as good painted by other artists equally as accomplished.

I will admit that the 1911 is THE most half-assed home gun-smithed pistol that ever existed and that fact probably skews the "Failure To" numbers quite a bit.
Most "drop in" parts cannot simply be dropped in. One "misfit" part and the pistol will have problems. That is the case with every other make of firearm also but, it is seen most in 1911s due to the popularity of the gun coupled with the fact that owners absolutely love to "customize" it...some or most without knowing what they are doing.

There is some worthwhile info provided in that article that I do agree with. Unfortunately a portion of it has leaked out of the Trainer Bravado southern orifice and that is quite sad. Boo Hoo.

So.....how many of you previously uneducated, innocently ignorant, DefensiveCarry amateur War Fighters are going switch on over to the Big "G" now that you are better informed? :confused:

Can I see a Show of Hands? <~~~No, of course I can't...I can't see anything except what I'm typing right now. :biggrin2:
 
#22 ·


Here's the other side. The sight went AWOL in summer of 2008 and I'm just so pleased to have it back on duty. It even did duty as the car gun on a trip out west a couple of weeks back. OD* gets extra points for noticing that it's an Augusta Arsenal rehab. OD*, I actually had a clever gunsmith fabricate one after a couple years search for a proper replacement. Wish the pistol could talk. I've been in close contact with 4 other AA reworks of 1911s that family or friends owned, all with serial numbers in the same general range and all were obtained through the NRA in the 1950s so I suspect this one mustered out in the same way.

Nope, QK it ain't got nothin'. Thousands were definitely not spent on it. I think it was marked $165 at Weber Jewelry and Loan on South Main Street in Fort Worth, Texas where I got it and they came off $20 for me. That wasn't even a really good deal at the time but I didn't know any better. The extractor that's in it was in it when I bought the gun. The extractor never even had the decency to break when I used to allow it to snap over a chambered round before learning better. I have treated it to springs on occasion; plain jain 16 lb. recoil springs are good enough. Feeds the proverbial cigar butt. For several years when it was the only 1911 .45 on the place I had a cloth bank coin bag that I'd keep full of 1200 rounds of handloads. It went through a number of those bags. I used to shoot a lot of 185 grain lead SWCs because they were cheap. It'd feed 'em loaded mild or loaded wild. Did all my initial handloading experimentation with this 1911. It's actually the 1911 that's been carried most of all and is the one traditionally used when my wife and I renew our concealed carry permits.

I get sentimental about my old favorite guns and there is no place for sentimentality with personal self-defense. Despite the sentimentality this thing still works and works well. I'd still take it seriously for self defense. The afternoon the front sight took its leave my son and I had already chewed through most of 8 boxes of stinky ol' Wolf ammo given to me on a freebie. The Colt Gold Cup choked and harked on this same filthy ammo after about the first box.

The U. S. military contract 1911s and 1911A1s, along with a Colt Government Model that a cousin has, are the kinds of 1911s I grew up with. They gave me the trust I have in the design. I wouldn't know what to do with one with all the bells and whistles.

Here's the poor old 1911 just after it lost it's front sight. This photo of it and the Colt Gold Cup was taken when we got our first digital camera. We're never on the cutting edge of technology here.


I was at the range this morning testing some handloads over the chronograph. Thought to take these Frankfort Arsenal '26 cartridges along. Wanted to shoot two of them and save the best looking one for the collection. Was hoping to be able to report that they still fired and gave normal velocities after 85 years but, after a couple of thwacks each, they proved to be duds.


17 OD*? I have 4. Looks like we could use a redistribution of wealth around here regarding 1911s. I need to get a good Colt Government Model and give this one and my other military contract guns an honored retirement. The Gold Cup is for target use.
 
#24 ·
This photo of it and the Colt Gold Cup was taken when we got our first digital camera. We're never on the cutting edge of technology here.
What the heck is a digital camera???? You must excuse my ignorance...I do,after all, own many 100 year old platform pistols and other than my BUG, those old fuddy duddy 1911's are all I carry, so obviously I am way behind the times...and probably stoopid too!
 
#23 ·
bmcgilvray
Thanks for posting the great pics.

"Thought to take these Frankfort Arsenal '26 cartridges along."

Duds! :dead:

Yeah...that .45acp ammo is pretty unreliable also. That's why it's just the perfect choice for the totally inadequate 1911 pattern handguns. :rofl:
 
#25 ·
"finicky and demands constant attention", yeah, must be why it was used for longer than any other modern handgun in any army. And all my shooting friends and I have just been lucky that our guns work all the time while competitive shooting (except for the guy who gunsmiths his to death, and the guy who can't handload one magazine worth of ammo without a squib or a stuck shell). I don't know why anyone would take such an obsolete weapon into battle. Except for the fact it replaced revolvers when revolvers were the state of the art handguns. And it only got replaced after two World Wars and a number of lesser conflicts, when "smaller stature" personnel couldn't handle them (but how does my buddy's pre-teen grand daughter shoot his?). Funny story about extractors, the first time a Glock was ever used in one of our pinshooting matches, the extractor broke.
 
#27 ·
From the pictures Bryan, your gunsmith did a super job on the front sight (and the supply of M1903 front sights is nearly gone anyhow). :hand10:

I noticed the arsenal markings because they are starting to become quite collectible in there own right. For years collectors ignored them for not being 100% original, now that the market on 100%er's has nearly dried up, they've changed their tune, and argue about whether the piece is 100% arsenal refurbished, or if parts were changed after it had left the arsenal. I recently sold a nice RIA refurbish to a friend who has been looking for a "real" USGI pistol for years.

Number 17 I just received last weekend, a good friend of mine was going through a nasty divorce and I kept a few of his more cherished pieces for safe keeping. Most of them you would appreciate Bryan, an example, a correct and original Winchester M1 carbine, a Springfield M1D (that one I really didn't want to give back :wink:), several pristine M1911A1s and a Nazi marked P-38, etc.

Last weekend he was moving and I happen to be there helping, when we had finished and were the only two there, he handed me a 1944 Ithaca, the gun is in nice shape, with the exception of two things, it has been "bumper" chromed and has another modification done to it that I'll let you find. :wink:

Anyway, I was quite surprised and happy to get it (and even numbers of 1911s is bad JuJu), I had teased him for years about stealing one of his "chrome plated sissy pistols."



 
#28 ·
Whoops! Correction. 21st birthday was in 1978. Since I'm 54 the 1987 transposition just doesn't add up.

Back to the article. Only an opinion but that piece was written for idiots. If one knows his way around the 1911 like several obviously do who post here on the Forum and he wants to play custom 1911s then great. A more gratifying sub-hobby within shooting sports can't be found. But, the 1911 isn't nearly so mysterious as the article alludes, nor should it engender such a sense of foreboding with regards to dependable function.

A simple admonition will suffice: "Don't excessively monkey with it!"
 
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#30 ·
Here's my take...

He’s a founding member of the International Defensive Pistol Association and also a member of the American Pistolsmiths Guild.

When he says he’s seen everything that can go wrong with a 1911, I believe him.

“Now, I shoot a Glock,” Vickers tells me. “Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass. If they don’t like messing around with the pistol and spending a grand to really get it tuned, then they should forget it.”

:congrats::hand10:
 
#37 ·
Well, LV is not going to sell too many "Vickers" Hammers, Disconnectors, & Sears (that he has now pasted his name onto...if he keeps encouraging shooters to stay away from the 1911.
Kinda like H.J. Heinz making a public announcement that Ketchup causes heart disease. :biggrin2:
 
#31 ·
Hah, OD*;

I think the shine is blinding me for I can't see any modification unless your talking about the grips. The grip safety is longer but I think that is the correct contour on an Ithaca. Cool that he gave it to you. That's a good friend. Of course it could be said that you're a good friend too for helping him through his nasty divorce and helping him move.

Yeah, I like all that old stuff you mention. Here's a heartbreaker. I had a crackerjack M1D that I ordered from the CMP. I later traded it to a guy for an 1893-S Morgan silver dollar. Sold the coin for a nice profit but don't have either now. I really like keeping stuff rather than selling it off. Oh well, can't keep everything.
 
#33 ·
The grip safety is longer but I think that is the correct contour on an Ithaca.
Good eye, and you are in the correct location. It does have the correct grip safety, but the frame tangs have been shorten also. If it wasn't for that fact, the pistol would be a good candidate for a restoration.


Yeah, I like all that old stuff you mention. Here's a heartbreaker. I had a crackerjack M1D that I ordered from the CMP. I later traded it to a guy for an 1893-S Morgan silver dollar. Sold the coin for a nice profit but don't have either now. I really like keeping stuff rather than selling it off. Oh well, can't keep everything.
Oh man, that is a heart-breaker.
 
#32 ·
Bryan, a question on your M1911? It looks to have ALL it's factory original parts, nothing appears to have been change in the refurbish, was the pistol even Parkerized, it appears to still retain some of it's bluing?
 
#34 ·
"the frame tangs have been shortened"

I didn't notice the shortened tangs, still can't really visualize the difference without comparing with a correct Ithaca. I had your thoughts and had salivated over the notion of stripping off the plating, cleaning it up, and Parkerizing it nicely.

It's definitely a rehab. Has one of the common WWII era High Standard barrels in it. Other than springs, I've just left it alone and shot the hooey out of it. It was Parkerized. I remember thinking it looked worn when I got it. Wish I had a photo of it back then to compare with now. I'm afraid that a lot more of the wear that it currently exhibits was acquired through my use of it. It's been marched all over our old family place in a military flap holster, carried beneath a suit coat in a Bianchi X-15 shoulder holster and used in a couple more belt holsters.

It does actually group pretty well considering the typical looseness it exhibits. The groups are nice and round and to point of aim with ball ammo. They are just somewhat larger than groups shot with the Remington Rand or the Gold Cup. Not bad mind you and it would stay well centered on a chest out to 25 yards or so. Part of the problem with precise shooting at distance originates with it's primitive sights.
 
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