New 9mm purchase advice.
This is a discussion on New 9mm purchase advice. within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I love the idea of using a shotgun in a home defense situation. Accessibility is my issue. My EDC is with me 90% of the ...
August 10th, 2011 08:29 AM
I love the idea of using a shotgun in a home defense situation. Accessibility is my issue. My EDC is with me 90% of the time. It is what I train with the most. And while I am sleeping it goes right by me. My shotgun is considerably larger and would not fit on my night stand. The shotgun lives in a safe to keep little fingers off of it and I don't leave my house without locking up all firearms.
I am sure there are super neato devices that can mount under my bed to lock the shotty up but aside from the little lady cramming tupperwares full of things under there; I would still then have to deal with some type of electronic device. I like my EDC to be my home defender due to accessibility, familiarity, and performance.
• We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us.
- George Orwell Military
August 10th, 2011 12:44 PM
Ammunition Drywall Penetration Analysis Test (Adpat)
Originally Posted by Medic30
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1
Be sure of your backstop, when you're using a shotgun with good defensive ammo. That buckshot will go through interior drywall walls.
With your .45, the thing is, you *know* where every shot you take is going. Hit or miss, that's on you.
Unless you're using a slug (or other single-projectile, i.e. some of the less-lethal stuff), yes, you know how your shotgun will pattern, but there's still no guaranty. Even doing your absolute best to make sure that it's all hits-on-target, there's still a chance, however small, that you might get a pellet straying off.
Remember that shooting is a perishable skill. I have no doubt that you'll have an easier learning-curve than guys like me: completely new, fresh-out-of-the-box newbies - but you may still find that you need some time to both get back up to speed as well as break any "training scars" you may have had from the past.
Originally Posted by DrPastor
It is hard to get you old-timers to like plastic fantastics, isn't it?
The ccw guns seem so light and for me hard to trust because of the toy-like feel. I saw a pink Keltec yesterday!
Don't worry, though - if you like steel, rest-assured that with good carry gear (a good belt to anchor it all, plus a good holster that properly distributes weight), carrying something huge like a Beretta 92, single-stack 1911-.45, or a full-sized BHP won't cause you undue labor.
There's also something to be said, for lasers, about when you physically cannot get to the sights. Certainly, point-shooting skills should not be overlooked, but there is an undeniable advantage in actually being able to see where your shot will be/come close to. That, paired with some of the extremely rudimentary sights of some "pocket rockets" as well as simply the reduced sighting radius of others also gives lasers a reason-for-being. Furthermore, for those of us with eye problems that makes picking up the sights somewhat problematic - whether it be brought about by age or disease - there's yet another potential benefit.
My concern for lights and lasers come from the industry push on those products. In an age when 50 year old men often fail to keep up with good technologies advances, I did not want to miss out. As far as iron sights are concerned, if I can see it I can hit it. But, I see the techniques used on the various videos, and there is much I can learn there.
If you haven't used a pistol-mounted light before, give it a try: but I highly recommend doing so in proper context - i.e. with a good trainer, in a class that teaches you low-light techniques and tactics. Remember foremost that the light mounted to the bottom of a pistol is in-line with your muzzle...this one single consideration alone should have you realizing that such a light is probably less than ideal to be used as a "searching" device. I *really* like having a weapon-mounted light, particularly in the home-defense context (I find them a bit too bulky for my preferred IWB carry pistol, but there are those of us who decide to make the compromise in comfort/carryability/concealment [and also light performance, in some cases]to get a light on their carry gun), but I like it for very specific reasons that I started to really learn and understand, through a low-light class.
Here's a recent thread in which some concerns were discussed:
I can see the great emphasis on shotguns at home, would anyone care to address the shot spread issue. My question stems from the thought that the damage and uncontrolled pattern will make me very much less likely to take the shot. Maybe thats a good thing. Perhaps, it is a very good thing.
Shotgun for HD - Recommendations Needed!
To address your concern for spread/patterning, this is something that you'll need to work out, for yourself, with your own shotgun(s), to decide what's best for you. Depending on your anticipated engagement distances and other concerns, everything from changing the brand or type of ammo you use to physical alterations to the gun (longer barrel, a choke, etc.) can well make any particular shotgun/setup more or less suited for your needs and wants.
For me, as I stated in that referenced thread, the shotgun is a *very* specific tool that fits a *very* specific purpose/scenario. For me, it's not about the "spread," but rather, the absolute devastation to the target that my shotgun - set up in the way it has been and with the ammo which I've chosen to feed her with - is able to wreck on the target downrange.
I've recently taken an introductory class with my shotgun, and have gotten very comfortable with her. There are a few changes to her setup that I'd like to make (I'd like a SpeedFeed III pistol-grip stock, and a rear single-point sling mount and sling), but I have fallen in love with the genre (and will be taking more classes with her, for sure). Still, it will not be my primary HD firearm, given how my house is set up and the potential scenarios that I can see. Nevertheless, when it comes to guarding that safe-room door, I now know, without a shadow of doubt, that whatever BG comes into my kill-zone will earn him/herself a very quick trip to the morgue.
August 10th, 2011 04:43 PM
This is what I would do!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Rollo
NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
nor the arrow for its swiftness,
nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend.
August 10th, 2011 07:01 PM
That's my thinking on the subject. I have the Mossberg 500 persuader, and even with the 18-inch barrel, my pattern testing at the range shows that out to 40 feet or so the spread is still compact - about a fist-width in diameter. For in-the-home use, distances will be generally shorter than that.
the shotgun is a *very* specific tool that fits a *very* specific purpose/scenario. For me, it's not about the "spread," but rather, the absolute devastation to the target
This raises an important point: Some people imagine that the shotgun spread will compensate for approximate aiming - spray-and-pray. In fact, it'd be pretty easy to miss, even at close range. So practice and and a stock are important. While I originally thought a PGO would be fine for HD, a few range outings sold me on the value of a stock.
For added safety, I mounted a tac-light to the barrel and got it aimed, so if I light something up at night, the hottest part of the beam is where the pellets should be going. That reduces concern with collateral damage.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
August 10th, 2011 08:12 PM
It's very important to know how your shotgun(s) pattern, as so many things can change it. It was a lesson that's both highly stressed by the Magpul DVDs (yeah, yeah, go ahead, I'm tacticool! - but seriously, they've been excellent preparation for any of the training classes I've taken, so I consider them good investments) and in virtually any good training class that you'll take at the "beginner" level.
And also just like you said, the misconception that "you can't miss with a shotgun" is a very dangerous one for anyone who intends to use it as a defensive weapon. You can indeed miss, and what's more, that miss can cause tremendous unintended damages.
August 10th, 2011 08:44 PM
I keep my Bersa Ultra Compact, (10+1) by the bedside. It has little recoil and is the easiest pistol I have to take down. You can't beat the price of the Bersa. Just a tad to large to carry for me, I use my DB9 for that.
August 10th, 2011 09:12 PM
I cant say whats best for home defence or ccw since over here our PC governement would never allow us to defend ourselves.
But people are right in pointing you to the G26\19 CCW or G17\34 Home Combo.
Same controls, same grip angle, same feel, interchangeable magazines, proven reliability, also a good price point as well.
You could also consider the larger .40S&W & .45 offerings in the same size packages.
For me if I ever moved to your great country
G19 for Conceal Carry
G17 locked into a CAA Roni Carbine (laser and cree LED torch), pity about the SBR stamp though.
Evil prevails when good men stand by and do nothing
August 10th, 2011 09:37 PM
I am a law enforcement instructor for handgun / shotgun, tact shotgun and patrol rifle. I also have my own academy and instruct for a Dept of Homeland Security contractor. First of all I don't suggest a single action auto pistol as your first carry or defensive handgun, however I do suggest some type of system that is striker fired like a Glock 19 or a Springfield XD 4" service model WITHOUT a manual safety. The Sig double / single decocker system is another type I would strongly suggest to you, just get to a reputable shop preferably with an indoor range so you can test fire them and see what fits you the best.
Now as far as a laser or a weapons mounted light, forget it until you have allot of range time and thousands or rounds down range. Lasers will just give your position away and so will a weapons mounted light if you forget to turn it off after you've fired a few rnds at your attacker which I can all but guarantee will happen under that kind of stress in a defensive shooting. The best way to become proficient with flashlight techniques, tact reloads, emergency reloads, malfunction clearing, proper grip & draw etc is to get some good quality training like we offer up here in NW Pa at my academy. I would also suggest a IWB or good quality strong side holster such as the Blackhawk Serpa L2 holster or a Crossbreed IWB AND either a single or double mag pouch along with a light pouch too.
Here is the courses we offer over two weekends in a row. The first courses you have to take which are prerequisites to advance are Personal Protection In The Home / Defensive Handgun Level 1-3 then we offer Defensive Handgun Level 4 & 5 then on to courses L6 and above which will include allot of movement, shooting on the move and pretty much a ton of CQB work. Keep safe and watch your six my friend
August 10th, 2011 10:48 PM
All good advice. I love BHP, but, do not mix your ergonomics. If one gun has a safety and the other not, you may get confused under stress.
Shotguns are the best one shot stop, but, some pro's say unless your going to hold up in your safe room, you need a handgun. They say a long barrell is only something the intruder can grab. I have a Taurus Judge. It's a revolver shotgun. There are a lot of detractors from the Judge, but mainly about spread. I don't expect to be shooting beyond 15 feet. In addition, I've read about guys who answered the door with a shotgun in hand and found a LEO on the other side who got real upset.
Lasers/night sights. I have one on every handgun I own that will hold one. I like the guide rod laser. It drops right in and is sighted right on at the factory. Night sights are an absolute must and as you get closer to my age you'll begin to appreciate them more and more, goes double for the lasers.
Glocks, if you can learn to shoot a Glock without cutting your hand there is a definite benefit to them. That is the interchange ability of mags. I have for my Glock 26 and 27 four different capacity mags for different situations. I have the mega capacity for home defense, a slightly smaller one for range shooting and the mag that comes with them for carry. I can use the same mags in my G23 and G27.
Caliber, If you go Glock, go 40 cal. All the Glocks down to the sub G27 have very manageable recoil with the 40 cal. and I'm ten years older than you.
Ill also give a thumbs up for the Kahr PM9 and a thumbs down for all Kel Tec's. I had a Taurus 709 slim and loved it but had no use for it once I got the PM9.
HOpe this helps.
August 10th, 2011 10:58 PM
I really like my cz75 phantom - 19 shots - mine shoots great - trigger breaks in in about 50 rounds and very accurate. beretta 92 or taurus clone of the 92 is very nice - i actually hear most people who have tried both like the taurus trigger best. - my beretta 96 sure needed a trigger job when i got it but that was years ago they may be better now. Just some food for thought - you should try a cz 75 of some variety just for kicks- they are great shooting guns in my opinion. Out of my 6 or so handguns - besides my browning buckmark .22 - the cz is the most accurate in rapid fire and i can dump 19 in 7 or 8 seconds and keep them in the 9 ring at 10 yards - that ain't that great for some people but it by far exceeds what i can do with any other handgun
Great privilege comes with great responsibility.
August 10th, 2011 11:24 PM
BHP has so much going for it\\many hate the mag interlock but if you have kids in the house it is a mechanical safety that is as reliable as any thing that moves and is made by humans can be\\ 13 or 14 rounds of +p and the grips can be Hodges or ...plastic or wood or....love my Harriett's.
it fits most 1911 holsters ( with retention, hammer back) sites are easy to change out and it makes a great IDPA gun.
try for the Portugal /Argentina model----try till you have it.
theres more but the idea is there by now.
for the other 9mm if wait is on your list of can do's--Broberg 9s is to die for.....er, lets try that again
radical new and its a gotta have--if it runs; I'm gambling my money, i am on the list.
closer to reality-4get the rail and go with a P-11 KelTec
light and versatile 10+1 and add the belt clip.
be nice to yourself and do not mess with the +p's till you can do the 9's
time for me to see if i can mate my OMC to my Fledgeling 40.
this is an idea that may actually fly...
----->other members here fly R/C?
You plug 'em, I plant 'em
...kid can't read at 17 (Garcia/Hunter 1985)
Lack of preparation on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on mine
August 11th, 2011 01:12 AM
+1 I own a PT99 (my partner shoots it) tried the Beretta 92, the 99 is just so much better in both finish and functionality.
Originally Posted by jbr
Lovely DA\SA trigger, safety and decocker is not on the slide making operation quick and simple, only thing id change is the cheap plastic grips for some nice rubber Pachmayer ones.
If youre looking for lasers on a budget try aliexpress.com, some great deals on all manner of pistol lasers both green and red, alot of expensive brand companies just get theirs out of China anyway.
Evil prevails when good men stand by and do nothing
August 11th, 2011 01:37 PM
My vote for one 9mm would be a Glock 19. It is the perfect medium between CCW and dedicated range gun handling all those duties very well. Plus you can load it with the glock 17 magazines or even the 33 rounders if so inclined. :)
For a second pistol, many will suggest the glock 26, but I would say if you have a 19, then the 26 isn't significantly smaller to make it a significantly better CCW. For a better concealable second 9mm I'd suggest a Kahr CM9, PM9 or a Ruger LC9
Those pistols are much smaller and can be carried easily in a pocket holster or IWB.
Money being no object, I'd look at the Springfield EMP9mm as a CCW option.
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