Just got the rug pulled out from under me twice! - Page 2

Just got the rug pulled out from under me twice!

This is a discussion on Just got the rug pulled out from under me twice! within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Here is the old NC statute. Old statute. 14‑409.10. Purchase of rifles and shotguns out of State. It shall be lawful for citizens of this ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Here is the old NC statute.

    Old statute.

    14‑409.10. Purchase of rifles and shotguns out of State.
    It shall be lawful for citizens of this State to purchase rifles and shotguns and ammunition therefor in states contiguous to this State.


    This will become law on 12-1-11.

    Unless otherwise prohibited by law, a citizen of this State may purchase a firearm in another state if the citizen undergoes a background check that satisfies the law of the state of purchase and that includes an inquiry of the National Instant Background Check System."


    And from the ATF October 2010. This is probably why the housekeeping above was added and passed.


    Contiguous States. The “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA), as enacted in 1968, allowed nonlicensed purchasers to acquire long guns from Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) located in a State contiguous to the State in which the purchaser resided if (1) the purchaser’s State of residence permitted such sale and (2) the sale fully complied with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states.

    This provision of the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow FFLs to sell or dispose of long guns to residents of any other state (not just contiguous states) provided — (1) the transferee meets in person with the FFL to accomplish the transfer; and (2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.

    A number of States patterned their laws after the original provision of the GCA that allows nonresidents to purchase long guns from FFLs only in contiguous states. Many of those States have not revised their laws to reflect the 1986 amendments to the GCA that allow over-the-counter sales of long guns to residents of any State, as outlined above. This has caused confusion among FFLs, who often read such “contiguous state” State laws as prohibiting sales to residents of noncontiguous states.

    ATF does not read State laws that refer to “contiguous states” as prohibiting sales of long guns to residents of noncontiguous states unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits residents from acquiring firearms outside that State. Thus, if the language in the State laws authorizes sales of long guns to residents of contiguous states, that State law also authorizes the sale of long guns to residents of all other states.

    FFLs who have questions about particular State laws should contact their nearest ATF office.


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  2. #17
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    Just getting on board to watch and learn...
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  3. #18
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    One of the rules concerning gun shops is that none of them are really allowed to know the laws governing sales to out of state patrons.

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  4. #19
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    Just wanted to put this up for those that did not see the link in my second posting.

    From ORC

    2923.22 Interstate transactions in firearms.

    (A) Any resident of Ohio age eighteen or over, and not prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code or any applicable law of another state or the United States from acquiring or using firearms, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition therefor in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania, or West Virginia.

    (B) Any resident of Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania, or West Virginia, age eighteen or over, and not prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code or the laws of his domicile or the United States from acquiring or using firearms, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition therefor in Ohio.

    (C) Any purchase and sale pursuant to this section shall be for such purposes and under such circumstances and upon such conditions as are prescribed by the “Gun Control Act of 1968,” 82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3), and any amendments or additions thereto or reenactments thereof.

    Effective Date: 01-01-1974

    (emphasis added)

    From the BATFE


    http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2011-02.pdf

    Quote:
    Contiguous State

    The “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) generally permit unlicensed purchasers to acquire long guns from Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) located in a State contiguous to the State in which the purchaser resides if (1) the purchaser’s State of residence permitted such sale and (2) the sale fully complied with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states. This provision of the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow FFLs to sell or dispose of long guns to residents of any other state (not just contiguous states) provided:
    1. the transferee meets in person with the FFL to accomplish the transfer; and
    2. the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.

    A number of States patterned their laws after the original provision of the GCA that allows nonresidents to purchase long guns from FFLs only in contiguous states. Many of those States have not revised their laws to reflect the 1986 amendments to the GCA that allow over-the-counter sales of long guns to residents of any State, as outlined above. This has caused confusion among FFLs, who often read such “contiguous state” State laws as prohibiting sales to residents of noncontiguous states.

    ATF does not read State laws that refer to “contiguous states” as prohibiting sales of long guns to residents of noncontiguous states unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits residents from acquiring firearms outside that State. Thus, if the language in the State laws authorizes sales of long guns to residents of contiguous states, that State law also authorizes the sale of long guns to residents of all other states.

    (emphasis added)

    An earlier letter from the BATFE

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2004-08.pdf

    Quote:
    CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2

    In an article that appeared in the December 2002 edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA, and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.

    The condition of sale relating to compliance with the applicable laws of both States cited above continues to cause confusion among dealers, particularly among those dealers who conduct business in a State whose laws presently contain language that allows “contiguous state” sales.

    Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State. For the most part, these State law provisions were modeled after the contiguous state provisions of the GCA. However, even though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow the sale of long guns to residents of any State pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar language. ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions regarding particular State law provisions should be referred to your local ATF office.

    (emphasis added)

    ORC 2923.22 expressly forbids nothing.
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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array itschuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector71 View Post
    I can't buy ammo in Kentucky per some law they say is on the books. I've tried in a couple of places and was turned down both times. I can buy in Va and North Carolina though. Maybe someone from KY can explain it to me?
    Huh..ammo?? Ive bought ammo all over the US no problem. I have never heard of such a thing in Kentucky.
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  6. #21
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    It's a state thing. Its one of the reason that some FFL's will NOT sell anything to some particular states. Most of us have seen the catolgues and flyers that have a list of states that they wont sell to. It's the state laws that prevent it.The real issue is that laws often changes and its hard to keep up with. Its not just real hard for an FFL to be on the wrong side of the law, just because he isnt familiar with the state law of the client that he is dealing with. Factor in the fact that most states dont even publicly ammend their laws but once or twice a year and you can figure out why it's hard to keep up with it.
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  7. #22
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    Just go to the gun counter in Wallmart and check out the map that they all have on what state can purchase there. It has nothing to do with adjacent state and depends upon the seller and buyer's state law.

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/lice...state-resident This is rifle and shotgun only. It the last sentence in the first paragraph.
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  8. #23
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    And there we have it.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I was under the impression you had to buy long guns from your state or an adjacent state, reciprocity has nothing to do with it. Either way, they hadn't a clue what they were talking about.
    To the extent I have looked at this, I believe it varies by state. There are states that say their own residents may not buy long guns out of state (or only in adjacent states, perhaps). Maybe Ohio has such a law, in which case a Virgina retailer needs to know whether or not it is legal for them to sell to a resident of Ohio.

    In the case of Maryland, where I live, there are no restriction on purchasing non-regulated guns out of state. Regulated guns are pistols and "assault weapons." So I can buy a bolt action rifle anywhere; in face, since HBAR configured AR-15s are not an the "assault weapon" list, I can buy one cash and carry wherever I want; put a gov't contoured barrel on it and I would be committing a felony if I bought in over the border.

    A quick Google search suggests that the Ohio law is that only residents of Ohio or adjacent states can buy long guns in Ohio. Thus, what the Bass Pro seems to have been saying is that their policy (not a state law) is not to sell to Ohio residents in Virginia, because a Virginia resident would not be allowed to buy in Ohio.
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  10. #25
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    Nowhere does ORC specifically forbid Ohio residents from purchasing long guns or ammo from any state. Neither does it specifically forbid any other state resident from purchasing long guns or ammo in Ohio. There is simply a provision for the contiguous state residents in accordance with the GCA. That same provision also states that that any amendments to the GCA would be followed. In 1986 the GCA was amended to allow sales and purchases of long guns and ammo from any state.

    ETA:

    This clearly a case of too many BS regulations. So many different ways to read and perceive that there can be no clear cut answer. You are therefor left at the mercy of the LEO/Courts. Though from at least 2 different letters from the BATFE they do not see any limitation on long gun sales at a federal level.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    To the extent I have looked at this, I believe it varies by state. ...
    A quick Google search suggests that the Ohio law is that only residents of Ohio or adjacent states can buy long guns in Ohio. Thus, what the Bass Pro seems to have been saying is that their policy (not a state law) is not to sell to Ohio residents in Virginia, because a Virginia resident would not be allowed to buy in Ohio.
    Actually, if you mean that since there is no specific permission to buy/sell to any but contiguous states then, by the letter of the law Ohio residents cannot buy long guns or ammo in Ohio because there is no such specific permission granted to Ohio residents.

    By that logic it is also illegal to sell Coca-cola on Wednesday afternoons in any retail location as there is no express permission to do so in the ORC.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmy40 View Post
    Actually, if you mean that since there is no specific permission to buy/sell to any but contiguous states then, by the letter of the law Ohio residents cannot buy long guns or ammo in Ohio because there is no such specific permission granted to Ohio residents.
    Please save the sarcasm for somebody else.

    My point stands. Ohio seems to have the following law on the books:


    ORC 2923.22

    (B) Any resident of Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania, or West Virginia, age eighteen or over, and not prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code or the laws of his domicile or the United States from acquiring or using firearms, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition therefor in Ohio.


    I am going to assume that there is case law on the books interpreting this to mean that folks from other states may not acquire said long guns in Ohio; at the very least, I am sure there are dealers in Ohio who are not at all willing to test the waters there and simply choose not to sell to residents of other states. There are other states that have similar legacy laws based on GCA 1968. Therefore, it seems that what Bass Pro did (whether it is corporate or just that store) is to draw up a "reciprocity" map establishing a policy about which state's residents they will or won't sell long guns to.

    I am not asserting any sort of agreement with any of the above; I was simply trying to figure out an explanation for the situation described in the original post.

    If there is Ohio AG opinion or State Supreme Court decision on file that states that residents of any other state may, indeed, buy long guns on Ohio, then you should draft a letter off to Bass Pro and ask them to reconsider their policy.
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  13. #28
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    Again
    ORC 2923.22 (C) Any purchase and sale pursuant to this section shall be for such purposes and under such circumstances and upon such conditions as are prescribed by the “Gun Control Act of 1968,” 82 Stat. 1213, 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3), and any amendments or additions thereto or reenactments thereof.
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