Sentiment on gun control

This is a discussion on Sentiment on gun control within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I was listening to my favorite radio talk show host and he was commented on Fast and Furious. It obviously failed and now there is ...

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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Sentiment on gun control

    I was listening to my favorite radio talk show host and he was commented on Fast and Furious. It obviously failed and now there is starting to be backlash. But the main comment that I thought was noteworthy is that the sentiment on more gun control is just not there with the general public. Sure, open carry is not acceptable as it was in the Old West, but great strides have been made in states to expand concealed carry laws and firearm possession even when we hear of all these "terrible" shootings everywhere. Obama had a huge majority in Congress his first two years yet no laws were passed. Sure there are insidious things he is doing behind the scenes, but me thinks that will change quickly come the next administration.
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    Open carry in all 57 states...change we CAN believe in...
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    ITW
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    I was listening to my favorite radio talk show host and he was commented on Fast and Furious. It obviously failed and now there is starting to be backlash. But the main comment that I thought was noteworthy is that the sentiment on more gun control is just not there with the general public. Sure, open carry is not acceptable as it was in the Old West, but great strides have been made in states to expand concealed carry laws and firearm possession even when we hear of all these "terrible" shootings everywhere. Obama had a huge majority in Congress his first two years yet no laws were passed. Sure there are insidious things he is doing behind the scenes, but me thinks that will change quickly come the next administration.
    Open carry was not acceptable in most towns in the old west.

    This is a myth largely perpetuated by Hollywood and politicians seeking constituents.

    Most towns banned the open carrying of firearms in the old west.

    This fact led to the shootout at the OK corral. In the east the open carrying of firearms in cities was more strictly regulated as is the case today.

    The way I see it, the problem with open carry is the risk to law enforcement and citizens alike. Of course one could imagine the social implications of a society, especially this one, where everyone openly carries deadly weapons.

    Furthermore, if the carrying of firearms becomes a required social norm, what are those who lack the ability to do so supposed to do? Or are they supposed to exist at the mercy of those who do? An example would be the old or the young.

    Not to mention the problem in regards to private property owners controlling the use of their own property.

    Certainly it becomes far more difficult for law enforcement to differentiate between the good and the bad when everyone is openly carrying a firearm. And at what point does a reasonable person believe that someone openly carrying a firearm in public is a threat to themselves or their family? After the dust clears?
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    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ITW View Post
    The way I see it, the problem with open carry is the risk to law enforcement and citizens alike. Of course one could imagine the social implications of a society where everyone openly carries deadly weapons.

    Furthermore, if the carrying of firearms becomes a required social norm, what are those who lack the ability to do so supposed to do? Or are they supposed to exist at the mercy of those who do? An example would be the old or the young.
    It only requires a majority of law-abiding, trained citizens to cause everyone's rights to be upheld. The old and the young would be protected by 10 righteous people who are near them, or with them, OC-ing.

    It's a deterrent to people trying to strong-arm their way through life by preying on the large numbers of vulnerable citizens. But if 90-95% of citizens are NOT vulnerable and there's pretty much always a good guy with a gun nearby, criminals will find OTHER WAYS to ply their ill-conceived trade, such as computer crime or something - so you're really presenting a 'straw man' argument to say what about the young or old.

    Criminals just don't open carry - you're having some fantasy where the criminal is blending in with a mass of people OC-ing and it doesn't jive with reality.

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    ITW
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    It only requires a majority of law-abiding, trained citizens to cause everyone's rights to be upheld. The old and the young would be protected by 10 righteous people who are near them, or with them, OC-ing.

    It's a deterrent to people trying to strong-arm their way through life by preying on the large numbers of vulnerable citizens. But if 90-95% of citizens are NOT vulnerable and there's pretty much always a good guy with a gun nearby, criminals will find OTHER WAYS to ply their ill-conceived trade, such as computer crime or something - so you're really presenting a 'straw man' argument to say what about the young or old.

    Criminals just don't open carry - you're having some fantasy where the criminal is blending in with a mass of people OC-ing and it doesn't jive with reality.

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    10 righteous people?

    What? Are you living in fantasy land.

    So I take it you believe in vigilante justice?

    Tell me then. How do you intend to educate all of these open carriers in regards to dispensing vigilante justice in the streets?

    I'm all for open carry. It's just not appropriate everywhere. And any rational human being with even a rudimentary understanding of the history of this country and of the world for that matter can see it can lead to misunderstandings among even the righteous of the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITW View Post
    Open carry was not acceptable in most towns in the old west.

    Most towns banned the open carrying of firearms in the old west.
    Care to cite your sources for these statements?
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    ITW
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Care to cite your sources for these statements?
    Rudimentary research.

    Dodge City, Ks (1878)

    Front Street, Dodge City, Kansas, 1878 The sign... | Bufflehead Cabin

    Tombstone, AZ. (1881)

    Ordinances enforced by the Earps in the OK Corral shoot-out

    Even though most kept their guns close by.. Generally, the only towns in the old west where open carry wasn't restricted was in places where law enforcement and a functioning town government didn't exist. Makes sense, since the citizens and shop keepers of such places didn't want strangers toting guns around town since there was a significant amount of unlawful behavior and suspect characters on the frontier. And much like today, no way to tell the good from the bad just by looking at them.

    You may have seen one of these;



    Of course there would have been no need for one of these in a place where open carry was permitted. In fact, in a place where open carry was permitted only a fool would carry a gun like that. This is why most saloon operators kept a loaded shotgun behind the bar. Just in case somebody that didn't like losing his money hadn't gotten the message.

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    The actual wild west may have been as short as 6 months. What has been portrayed in Hollywood is mostly total BS. Back then, it was different. A different way of life because almost everyone was armed to survive the dangers of the west. Snakes, coyotes, and other natural problems. Two legged ones included.

    What's also well documented is how terrible the accuracy of most people was. Read the actual stories of gun fights. You could have two people use two six shooters each and no one was hit. The establishment was in bad shape, but the people in it were fine.

    Most people killed were shot with long guns, and oftentimes were shot in the back. The lawless west was never really lawless. It was more of a hard life than anything else.

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    ITW
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    The actual wild west may have been as short as 6 months. What has been portrayed in Hollywood is mostly total BS. Back then, it was different. A different way of life because almost everyone was armed to survive the dangers of the west. Snakes, coyotes, and other natural problems. Two legged ones included.

    What's also well documented is how terrible the accuracy of most people was. Read the actual stories of gun fights. You could have two people use two six shooters each and no one was hit. The establishment was in bad shape, but the people in it were fine.

    Most people killed were shot with long guns, and oftentimes were shot in the back. The lawless west was never really lawless. It was more of a hard life than anything else.
    Pow..



    This reminds me of the history of Wild Bill Hickok.

    The thing that separated Hickok from the town troublemakers that he killed one by one during his rise to fame as a lawman was his accuracy with either hand, and confidence. Not hard to understand considering his service during the Civil war. Apparently his favorite target was the gut.

    At the time he carried a pair of .36 navy revolvers in a red sash, during a time when most men were carrying .44's.

    On one occasion during a shootout he mistakenly killed one of his own deputies.

    He was killed in South Dakota in a saloon while playing cards when the town bum/drunk shot him in the back of the head with what had been a concealed .45 revolver. Some say it was a conspiracy. Others say McCall was looking for fame. Of course he took the wrong seat, and had a pair of aces and a pair of eights, which became known as the Dead Man's Hand.

    Here's a write up if anybodies interested.

    WILD BILL HICKOK

    The thing that really brought law and order to the frontier was the U.S. Cavalry, settlement and to an extent the armed citizen. Not only the armed part, but because they chose to cooperate with law enforcement in rooting out the troublemakers. The James Gang trip to rob a bank in Northfield, Minnesota in 1876 being one example of the armed part;

    http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/jamesyo...orthfield.html

    Think about it for a moment. You live on the frontier or in the old west. Maybe in a town. With no modern medicine. No hospital. Maybe a doctor with a saw. Would you relish getting shot? Or even taking the chance? I think not. Like SFury says, there were many dangers on the frontier. Snakes, bears, the natives, you name it. Not to mention having to eat something regularly. Gunfights between people openly carrying guns as a way to settle petty differences just didn't happen all that much.

    Oh, and there was also the hangin'.

    In fact I've seen some sources describe the gun violence today as being far worse than anything that happened in the old west. Part of it is more people living a lot closer together. Part of it is.. I leave that up to you.

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    Interesting story of Wild Bill...thanks for posting!
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    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    I just love that what seems to be the majority of the government is after gun control. Especially the president. It's ridiculous.
    But nobody seems to care the slightest bit about CAR control.

    Just think about it.

    An 'idiot' behind a trigger is MOST likely to hurt/kill himself. The same 'idiot' behind the wheel of a car is MOST likely to kill himself, you, your family, and other bystanders on the street.

    So, why do so many people car about who owns/carries guns ('tiny' projectile- does limited damage), when so few people care about who owns/operates a car (2K+ pound projectile, can easily do incredible amounts of damage)?
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    Yeah, I mean if we allowed OC everywhere then the criminals would surely arm themselves openly too. Then what would we do? I'm glad there are laws on the books that keep these scum bag criminals from concealing those dangerous guns.

    Wait....What????

    OC has been acceptable in NC likely since before it was a state. The NCSC has upheld OC as the right of the people, where CC is the legislated privilege.

    I'm stunned at the thought process where an openly carried gun is more dangerous than an illegally concealed one. What criminal is going to take the chance and OC? Especially when they could care less about breaking the law by concealing.
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    I believe anyone regardless where they live who wishes to OC should first visit Arizona to see first hand how it's done and how police and fellow citizens react to it.
    This could eliminate any confusion among gun users who spread nonsense about OC and it's impact on society and authorities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITW View Post
    10 righteous people?

    What? Are you living in fantasy land.

    So I take it you believe in vigilante justice?

    Tell me then. How do you intend to educate all of these open carriers in regards to dispensing vigilante justice in the streets?

    I'm all for open carry. It's just not appropriate everywhere. And any rational human being with even a rudimentary understanding of the history of this country and of the world for that matter can see it can lead to misunderstandings among even the righteous of the moment.
    I was trying to further your analogy which was, yes, a fantasy.

    You said OC only protects those who can carry HG. In fact, as a deterrent it protects everyone around them as evidenced by the waffle house crime in progress which was deterred by two OC-ers eating breakfast that the 'scout' saw.

    No, not vigilante just visible deterrence, which protects the persons doing it (once number climb) but those innocent non-HG wielders all around them from harassment. Sure you can go to a bad part of town or hang out doing stupid things with stupid people and still be at risk. If there had been 10 OC teachers at a certain school in Columbine, then there would not have been a mass-murdering rampage by those two nuts.

    Up to a point, more people OC-ing in a lawful manner with good retention holsters will help to incur a more polite society. I really believe that and I carry wherever I go.

    Thanks for your comments and we now leave fantasyland and return to reality! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    I was trying to further your analogy which was, yes, a fantasy.

    You said OC only protects those who can carry HG. In fact, as a deterrent it protects everyone around them as evidenced by the waffle house crime in progress which was deterred by two OC-ers eating breakfast that the 'scout' saw.

    No, not vigilante just visible deterrence, which protects the persons doing it (once number climb) but those innocent non-HG wielders all around them from harassment. Sure you can go to a bad part of town or hang out doing stupid things with stupid people and still be at risk. If there had been 10 OC teachers at a certain school in Columbine, then there would not have been a mass-murdering rampage by those two nuts.

    Up to a point, more people OC-ing in a lawful manner with good retention holsters will help to incur a more polite society. I really believe that and I carry wherever I go.

    Thanks for your comments and we now leave fantasyland and return to reality! :)
    If open carry works as you describe, then Iraq and Afghanistan should be the safest countries in the world.

    I'm amazed that you actually believe that the key to solving societies ills in regards to crime and anti-social behavior is for everybody to openly strap a gun on their hip or carry a long gun and walk around in public daring somebody to 'make their day'.

    Furthermore, in regards to Columbine, OC is not a deterrent to the suicidal.

    Not to mention the problems in regards to the rights of private property owners.

    You owe it to yourself to travel to a war zone some time. That way you'll understand what it feels like to walk around armed all the time with a target on your back.

    The other option would be to become an LEO. Don't forget your body armor and bomb sniffing dog.

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