Dealer has my Suppressor from the "Hotguns"group buy - Page 2

Dealer has my Suppressor from the "Hotguns"group buy

This is a discussion on Dealer has my Suppressor from the "Hotguns"group buy within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by HotGuns I'm glad to hear that your dealer got the package. If you have an NFA hostile Sheriff or Police Chief, the ...

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Thread: Dealer has my Suppressor from the "Hotguns"group buy

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I'm glad to hear that your dealer got the package.

    If you have an NFA hostile Sheriff or Police Chief, the trust is the easiest way to go. It eliminates putting up with anti-gun,anti-freedom mental midgets, but you also don't have to provide photos or prints. In fact, just the other day, I heard of a Form 4 that was blank on the back side getting approved by the ATF.

    It also has the advantage of legally allowing your family members or anyone noted on the trust the ability to shoot or possess your stuff. If one of your kids wants to go shoot your suppressed rifle out on the back 40, he can do it without any hassles or worries.

    Since no one stop as just one can, once you are set up as a Trust, it'll be a lot easier in the future to buy not only suppressors, but SBS's, SBR's or even AOW's.

    There aren't really any disadvantages of going the trust route other than the initial lawyer fee, but from what I have seen it is well worth it.
    I'm planning on doing the "trust" just in case I end up running into some money and talk my wife into buying some FA's
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    I know a few people who used online trusts and got approved. I did some gunsmithing for a lawyer friend to do mine. The trust is the best option in my opinion.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    I own 2 cans, went the trust route.
    I hope you know that you will still have to wait for your tax stamp to take possession of the can, this could take upwards of 2-3 months, & cost $200.00.
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

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  4. #19
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    I don't have any particular interest in getting any of these devices but I am interested in the subject of trusts and their uses and pitfalls.

    I tried to find an example of an NFA trust, to see what the text looked like, and couldn't find one--though I found lots of adds for lawyers who would draw one up.

    I found some comments about what needs to go into such a trust. I found some comments that suggested some benefits to making an NFA trust irrevocable. I found some comments that I doubt are correct along the lines of 'you don't have to do this or that' and "the state doesn't know." My next comment goes to that issue.

    One comment that was interesting was that the device needs to be paid for with funds from the trust. This makes sense. Because otherwise it is being acquired outside of a trust. Well for a trust to have funds you need a bank account; you need a Federal ID for the trust that is not your usual social security number; and many banks won't honor trusts until they are recorded with the county clerk, and/or they will also require their own trust form be filled out.

    I have no idea what experiences folks have been having, and as I said I have yet to see the wording of an NFA trust sample.

    I can see a bunch of issues if not done properly and even if done properly but not acted upon/ executed correctly. I can also see some needless expenses getting accrued if not done properly, as well of course as legal problems. e.g., owning something in your own name by mistake.

    Does anyone have a sample NFA trust they would post here or send me by private message. I would like to see what they are really like. Or, if you know a url with a good example, please post that url.

    Again, these things can and do get tangled up with both IRS taxation and estate planning, neither of which are simple and details vary a lot from state to state. We (TX) have very low probate costs and simplified procedures so for us the general idea of a living revocable trust isn't as attractive as it is in CA which has very expensive probate proceedings. An irrevocable trust has other complexities. And, just because you have one created doesn't mean it is actually a valid trust when shtf. Judges can and do declare these things as void "ab initio" In other words, BATF if they wished could come back later and challenge the legal legitimacy of the trust, with some very nasty potential consequences.

    Having been burned badly in a situation where I was trustee of an irrevocable trust that was years after its creation voided by a judge along with my actions to the beginning, I urge everyone to be really really careful about how you go about all of this.
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  5. #20
    Member Array OperatorJ's Avatar
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    The problem with a suppressor is it makes the draw on my carry pistol REEEEEEAAAAALLY long and awkward.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't have any particular interest in getting any of these devices but I am interested in the subject of trusts and their uses and pitfalls.

    I tried to find an example of an NFA trust, to see what the text looked like, and couldn't find one--though I found lots of adds for lawyers who would draw one up.

    I found some comments about what needs to go into such a trust. I found some comments that suggested some benefits to making an NFA trust irrevocable. I found some comments that I doubt are correct along the lines of 'you don't have to do this or that' and "the state doesn't know." My next comment goes to that issue.

    One comment that was interesting was that the device needs to be paid for with funds from the trust. This makes sense. Because otherwise it is being acquired outside of a trust. Well for a trust to have funds you need a bank account; you need a Federal ID for the trust that is not your usual social security number; and many banks won't honor trusts until they are recorded with the county clerk, and/or they will also require their own trust form be filled out.

    I have no idea what experiences folks have been having, and as I said I have yet to see the wording of an NFA trust sample.

    I can see a bunch of issues if not done properly and even if done properly but not acted upon/ executed correctly. I can also see some needless expenses getting accrued if not done properly, as well of course as legal problems. e.g., owning something in your own name by mistake.

    Does anyone have a sample NFA trust they would post here or send me by private message. I would like to see what they are really like. Or, if you know a url with a good example, please post that url.

    Again, these things can and do get tangled up with both IRS taxation and estate planning, neither of which are simple and details vary a lot from state to state. We (TX) have very low probate costs and simplified procedures so for us the general idea of a living revocable trust isn't as attractive as it is in CA which has very expensive probate proceedings. An irrevocable trust has other complexities. And, just because you have one created doesn't mean it is actually a valid trust when shtf. Judges can and do declare these things as void "ab initio" In other words, BATF if they wished could come back later and challenge the legal legitimacy of the trust, with some very nasty potential consequences.

    Having been burned badly in a situation where I was trustee of an irrevocable trust that was years after its creation voided by a judge along with my actions to the beginning, I urge everyone to be really really careful about how you go about all of this.
    PM Sent
    rolyat63
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rolyat63 View Post
    PM Sent
    Thank you.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Hey Hopyard tried PMing you my email too. Send me an email to rolyat63 @ gmail.com and I'll send you one back.

    Sam


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    rolyat63
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  9. #24
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    I deal with trusts a lot. It just escapes me why in the world a trust would make a difference to BATFE etc. I believe ya'll, but it just staggers the imagination to be honest. I understand trusts of all types, I understand taxation, I understand the legal principles underpinning trusts of all types, I understand taxation of trusts of all types, and I do believe ya'll, totally. Why would the BATFE/NFA really make a distinction, and what does it really mean. Very funny actually. A distinction without a difference?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    I deal with trusts a lot. It just escapes me why in the world a trust would make a difference to BATFE etc. I believe ya'll, but it just staggers the imagination to be honest. I understand trusts of all types, I understand taxation, I understand the legal principles underpinning trusts of all types, I understand taxation of trusts of all types, and I do believe ya'll, totally. Why would the BATFE/NFA really make a distinction, and what does it really mean. Very funny actually. A distinction without a difference?
    Hot Guns wrote in post 15, "If you have an NFA hostile Sheriff or Police Chief, the trust is the easiest way to go. It eliminates putting up with anti-gun,anti-freedom mental midgets, but you also don't have to provide photos or prints. In fact, just the other day, I heard of a Form 4 that was blank on the back side getting approved by the ATF."

    You'd think BATF would hate these things. The parts I put in bold. By shifting the ownership to the trust the responsibility of the owner gets "diluted." HG's comment, "you also don't have to provide photos or prints," makes it seem like these are some way for BGs to slink past background checks.

    Gee, "that full auto and silencer don't belong to me. They are owned by the trust." Weird.

    But I can see the advantage of a trust for being able to easily pass the "item" on to the contingent trustees so your spouse or son suddenly isn't the owner/possessor of a weapon on which they didn't pay the tax.

    Still, if BATF is OK with them, my only concern here is to warn that trusts aren't legally simple documents and they have tax and estate planning implications, and the trustee can get chewed up between the grantor, the beneficiaries, the IRS, the judge, and everyone's lawyer. (I know that isn't likely if the grantor and the trustee are the same person. I'm just relaying my "don't let a good deed go unpunished experience.)
    Rock and Glock likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #26
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    David M. Goldman is an attorney who specializes in NFA GUN TRUSTS. I believe he is in Florida or Connecticut, however he publishes an online blog, and has connections in every state.

    His blog is a wealth of information for everything NFA.

    Answers many questions like why you don't want to use just any lawyer to set up your trust. Pro's and con's of Living Trust vs. a specific NFA Trust. Why to avoid going the "do-it-yourself" route or using something like Legal Zoom to get your trust documents. Links to all the ATF forms you need and how to fill them out, etc. It's a great website! You can also contact his law firm directly with any questions.

    NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog

    I spent a couple hours reading the blog and following a lot of the links one night and found out a lot of valuable information. I've been thinking about making an SBR sometime in the future so I bookmarked the website for future reference.

    If anyone looks at this website, or has in the past, feel free to post your opinions on it. I think it would be a good idea to spend some time there if you are thinking about acquiring any NFA items (full auto, AOW, suppressors, SBR's, etc).
    -Bark'n
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  12. #27
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    If anyone looks at this website, or has in the past, feel free to post your opinions on it.
    I just cruised through it and it looks like a great source of information, one of the better sites that I have seen. It is well done.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Thanks for the Link Bark'n I have sent contact info
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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