Was this accidental or negligent? - Page 2

Was this accidental or negligent?

This is a discussion on Was this accidental or negligent? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Think before you act. KISS...

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Thread: Was this accidental or negligent?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Richard58's Avatar
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    Think before you act. KISS


  2. #17
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    [QUOTE=TX expat;2117368]Yeah, that's why they call 'em auto negligence instead of auto accidents.

    Sorry but I'm going to go with actual accepted definitions. Take it up with Merriam-Webster if you want to change the meaning of a word...

    Accident [noun]: 1a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by design>

    2a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident>
    c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought

    Negligent [adj] 1 a : marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably b :" failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances"
    2: marked by a carelessly easy manner

    Yes there are accidents. Automobile accidents, firearm accidents, slipping and falling on ice you didn't see accidents. An accident can be caused by negligence. An act of negligence can result in an accident. Intent is the key factor, not stupidity or carelessness. "Did that person intend fire the weapon?[/QUOTE]"

    See the quote below for the correct answer...

    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    So. Is there a "lesson learned" we can take away from this incident?

    Can't speak for any of you, but in the world I've grown up in, you don't hand somebody a loaded gun. You make the gun safe, show that it's safe, and invite the person to whom you are handing it to satisfy him or herself that the gun is indeed safe and suitable for inspection.

    In this situation, if the kid wanted to pass his gun around, he should have unloaded it, cleared the chamber (while keeping the barrel pointed in a safe direction), put the safety on (if the gun had one), and then proceeded to Show and Tell.

    It's such common sense that I'm amazed that there are people who don't do that.
    Above is the correct answer...IMO, yes, he did intend to fire the weapon because he was "obviously negligent" in how it was handeled...Ignorance is not an excusable accident.
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  3. #18
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    Accidental = at a party with a gun...for safety reasons the weapon is put into a case and placed on a shelf. For some unknown reason the gun fires...

    Negligent = anything else...
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  4. #19
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Negligent discharge is a military term used to court marshal a soldier because they are trained and should know better that to handle a gun in an unsafe manner

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Can't speak for any of you, but in the world I've grown up in, you don't hand somebody a loaded gun. You make the gun safe, show that it's safe, and invite the person to whom you are handing it to satisfy him or herself that the gun is indeed safe and suitable for inspection.
    Exactly right. Remove magazine, rack slide three times, inspect chamber, lock slide back, pass gun.

  6. #21
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    Ignorance creates accidents every day. Call it whatever you want. Negligent discharge. Accidental discharge. I could care less, because both can be used correctly to describe that event.

    What I do care about is people thinking that they can redefine a word to suit their view of how it should or should not be used. You seem to think that the word 'accident' somehow denies all culpability and it does not; it doesn't address fault. An accident can result from careless action. Careless action does not have anything to do with actual intent. The gun was not purposefully fired; it was the result of a careless act. A driver who is texting on a phone and wrecks into another car is not guilty of intending to cause a wreck. Regardless of how stupid it may be to text and drive (or unsafely handle a firearm), the end result is not an intentional act, even if it's an all but guaranteed consequence, therefore it's an accident. See 2a under 'accident'...

    I also agree that shockwave's personal views on firearm safety is 'correct' and I'm most certianly not debating the value of gun safety. In fact, I'm a pretty strong proponent of firearm safety in every respect but it doesn't allow me to change word definitions simply because I don't believe they should apply to certain events...

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Ignorance creates accidents every day. Call it whatever you want. Negligent discharge. Accidental discharge. I could care less, because both can be used correctly to describe that event.

    What I do care about is people thinking that they can redefine a word to suit their view of how it should or should not be used. You seem to think that the word 'accident' somehow denies all culpability and it does not; it doesn't address fault. An accident can result from careless action. Careless action does not have anything to do with actual intent. The gun was not purposefully fired; it was the result of a careless act. A driver who is texting on a phone and wrecks into another car is not guilty of intending to cause a wreck. Regardless of how stupid it may be to text and drive (or unsafely handle a firearm), the end result is not an intentional act, even if it's an all but guaranteed consequence, therefore it's an accident. See 2a under 'accident'...I also agree that shockwave's personal views on firearm safety is 'correct' and I'm most certianly not debating the value of gun safety. In fact, I'm a pretty strong proponent of firearm safety in every respect but it doesn't allow me to change word definitions simply because I don't believe they should apply to certain events...
    So his intent was:

    a. Unsafely handle a firearm?
    b. Be guaranteed the firearm would discharge knowing it will most likely injure and/or kill someone?
    c. Be only partially culpable because it is only a "careless" act?
    d. All of the above?

    I'm going with "d" above and please see "b" under your definition of negligent...He was "obviously negligent". Not redefining the word "negligent" at all.
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  8. #23
    Member Array gunsnroses's Avatar
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    I hate reading these AD vs. ND debates. There sure are allot of victims of a AD on this forum?

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    An accident is when birth control fails, negligence is when you don't use it.
    As far a guns there are only ND's
    jem102 likes this.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    An accident is when birth control fails, negligence is when you don't use it.
    As far a guns there are only ND's
    Excellent! Did your wife think of that one?

  11. #26
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    No, I don't believe you are redefining the word 'negligent' but you do appear to be redefining the word 'accident' and I'm guessing you have a pretty lose definition of 'intent' as well.

    The gun went off accidentally. Was it negligent? Absolutely. That person did not stick their finger on the trigger and pull it with the intent of having the gun fire. That would be intent. The fact that they should have known better, or practiced gun safety, or just been smart enough to understand that they are an idiot and shouldn't play with firearms does not equal intent to fire the gun. Was it an accidental discharge? Yes. Was it a negligent discharge? Yes. Those two terms are not exclusive of each other.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses View Post
    Excellent! Did your wife think of that one?
    Actually I just made it up And out of all the accidents in my life my son is not one!

  13. #28
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  14. #29
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    From article:

    "We were all just having fun watching the Red Wings game, and we were playing a game of cards," Aponte told us.

    Then for reasons that still aren't clear, Bock's friends say he got 22-year-old Robert Lanzilotti's gun.

    Lanzilotti's served in Afghanistan and says he has a permit for the weapon.

    He says Bock was trying to pass him the gun.

    "As I had grabbed a hold of it, picking it up, he was still trying to grab it and we got our wires crossed," he explained. "Next thing you know it just went off."

    "I heard the bang, and I turned around. All I [saw] was Cameron fall to the ground," Aponte said.

    Bock shot himself in the face.

    "I ran back to my bedroom, grabbed my med kit that I had when I was in Afghanistan. I took out the head dressings and the gauze and started applying pressure," said Lanzilotti.





    ^^^^^^^"All having fun"
    .....................................Clowning around

    ^^^^^^^^"Reasons still unclear"
    ................................................Ca relessly not paying attention

    ^^^^^^^^^^^he was still trying to grab it and we got our wires crossed,"

    .................................................. .AGAIN,,,,Carelessly not paying attention


    Thank God the owner of the firearm had a medic kit.

    He, IMHO was also partly negligent, to the extent, that if it was his firearm, he should have made sure no one could get it.
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  15. #30
    New Member Array mistergus75's Avatar
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    I had a negligent discharge last April 2011.

    Field-stripping my new XD-40, didn't drop the mag.

    Bullet went into my palm and blew out the side of my hand. It then went into my leg, exited out the other side. Had hand surgery, followed by weeks of therapy.

    Almost all the feeling has returned to my hand. Have probabably 98% of the movement back.

    Bullet missed the artery in my leg by 1 centimeter, I was told. I'm lucky beyond words.

    It was nothing but stupidity on my part. No excuses.

    One thing I know...my awareness of gun safety is probably higher than just about anybody.

    It will never happen to me again.

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