Frustration Personified

This is a discussion on Frustration Personified within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; As a NRA instructor, I try to keep updated on firearm news and pass the current information on to my students. One guy asked if ...

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Thread: Frustration Personified

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Zsnake's Avatar
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    Frustration Personified

    As a NRA instructor, I try to keep updated on firearm news and pass the current information on to my students.

    One guy asked if you could carry a loaded, UNCONCEALED firearm in the car with you in Virginia. Of course I told him yes. It's been this way forever. In fact, since last July, one can also carry a firearm in the glovebox...a change from past rulings that the glovebox must be locked.
    Now another guy said that he'd been pulled over, told the officer that he had a pistol on the seat next to him, and was told that he was in violation of the law and not to do that again.

    I re-read the law, and it says " 18.2-308 Personal Protection; Carrying Concealed Weapons; When Lawful to Carry.
    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel."

    Soooo, just to be sure, I called the local police station. NO, NO, says they. Only in towns that have less than 100,000 residents is it legal. AND you cannot carry it in the glovebox.

    I thanked him and then called the State Police. THEY say that one cannot carry any loaded firearm without a CCW anywhere in the car.

    Hmmmmm.

    I then called my lawyer, and he said that I was right. That the police don't want you to know such carry is sanctioned by the State and so out-right lie (MY words) to you regarding this issue. He assured me that if someone came to him with a ticket for doing so he would win handily in court.

    He called it punishment by lawyer. In other words, the money you spend contesting the charge would be greater than the fine for the "violation".

    WHAT IS ONE TO BELIEVE????

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zsnake View Post
    As a NRA instructor, I try to keep updated on firearm news and pass the current information on to my students.

    One guy asked if you could carry a loaded, UNCONCEALED firearm in the car with you in Virginia. Of course I told him yes. It's been this way forever. In fact, since last July, one can also carry a firearm in the glovebox...a change from past rulings that the glovebox must be locked.
    Now another guy said that he'd been pulled over, told the officer that he had a pistol on the seat next to him, and was told that he was in violation of the law and not to do that again.

    I re-read the law, and it says " 18.2-308 Personal Protection; Carrying Concealed Weapons; When Lawful to Carry.
    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel."

    Soooo, just to be sure, I called the local police station. NO, NO, says they. Only in towns that have less than 100,000 residents is it legal. AND you cannot carry it in the glovebox.

    I thanked him and then called the State Police. THEY say that one cannot carry any loaded firearm without a CCW anywhere in the car.

    Hmmmmm.

    I then called my lawyer, and he said that I was right. That the police don't want you to know such carry is sanctioned by the State and so out-right lie (MY words) to you regarding this issue. He assured me that if someone came to him with a ticket for doing so he would win handily in court.

    He called it punishment by lawyer. In other words, the money you spend contesting the charge would be greater than the fine for the "violation".

    WHAT IS ONE TO BELIEVE????
    If you're confused about it - and it certainly sounds like you have good reason to be - don't offer opinions on this topic as an instructor or representative of any authority, NRA, a range etc. Any question you're asked about that refer the person to their attorney who can take it from there. It's up to the attorney to find the information. Or you can refer them to the NRA.

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    and on time.... At band camp....
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    By what I read as you quoted, the firearm must be: "...in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel." I would interpret this as a glove box, console compartment, etc. So having it openly displayed on the seat next to you would not fit that statute paragraph. Nothing in what you quoted allows "open carry." The key words are "and such handgun is IN..."

    FL law also allows anyone who can legally possess a firearm to conceal a gun within the interior of a private conveyance as long as it's in a closed container (nothing said about locked) or a snapped holster. INcluded is a zipped gun case or even a box with a lid. Basically, anything concealed that has to be opened.

    Without the entire statute on hand, it's difficult to make a determination. I fail to see any prereguisite of town size in this.
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    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    Before I got my CC permit, I asked officers from Norfolk, Chesapeake, and a State Trooper about this and got a different answer from each one. It made me feel uneasy to say the least that if I was pulled over with a gun in my car I could get ticketed or arrested because of a police officer's ignorance of updates to the law. Norfolk police arrested a man open carrying at Harborfest in 2008 because of this very same ignorance. He sued and was awarded $15,000 in an out of court settlement.

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    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    I don't know why I need a lawyer to interpret the laws for me. They should be simple enough to understand.

    Yet, even the new CC law passed in Wisconsin has some ambiguities to it. Most notably in regards to carrying on/around school grounds which frustrates me. Why? I work for the local school district. All I know is that I am guaranteed the right to keep my gun locked in my vehicle while at work.

    No, I do not want to be the one to help get the ambiguity defined either.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    When you feel that you may run into a situation such as the OP pointed out,it can't hurt to print out the relevant law and carry the papers with you.
    sgb likes this.
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    As I have said before, if I need legal advice, I ask a lawyer who I trust. The Police Officer Training Academy is not law school.
    Inspector71 likes this.

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    Senior Member Array Zsnake's Avatar
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    OldVet.....

    Virginia has always (Since I've been around...40 years) been an open carry state. If you can carry one on your side, why not in a car?

    Duke Almighty/Walleye....good poop!

    SFury..."I don't know why I need a lawyer to interpret the laws for me. They should be simple enough to understand."
    AMEN,AMEN,AMEN!

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    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    I haven't had that conversation here, but my sheriff promtes concealed carry. I have heard stories about Denver being unfriendly, I wouldn't be surprised if the stories are those kind you can read on the internet about a friend of my cousin's brother-in-law, who knew a guy that heard a story in a bar......



    There just aren't enough bushes to hide all the conspiracies

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    Yet, even the new CC law passed in Wisconsin has some ambiguities to it. Most notably in regards to carrying on/around school grounds which frustrates me. Why? I work for the local school district. All I know is that I am guaranteed the right to keep my gun locked in my vehicle while at work.
    WI law says with a CCW you can ignore the 1000' rule, but NOT on school grounds at all (federal law, like the post office was the explination I received)... I park in the street next to the lot and get a lil more exercise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivoire View Post
    WI law says with a CCW you can ignore the 1000' rule, but NOT on school grounds at all (federal law, like the post office was the explination I received)... I park in the street next to the lot and get a lil more exercise.
    Not quite. PO is federal property and falls under their jurisdiction. GFSZ act can be circumvented by states, and has on several occasions. They chose not to allow it at the state level, don't let them pawn it off on the Feds.
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    I've seen black letter law turn all shades of grey in court, and all shades of red on the street. Use common sense, get a permit, and carry concealed. As far as schools, MN allows a permit holder to get out of his car in a school parking lot to secure his handgun, but WI just reduces the penalty of possessing a gun on any school property from a felony to a forfeiture (misdemeanor.) Generally, state carry laws avoid addressing the Federal 1000' prohibition that makes all of us criminals. The only attempt of which I am aware in WI to prosecute the 1000' law in Madison was against an individual openly carrying on his porch near a school. Because he was on his own property, the city, read taxpayers, had to give him a cash settlement. Anyone else want to mix guns and schools in WI to win that lotto?
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    One of my biggest gripes is about the laws that change and the little, if any notification that the guys writing the tickets get.

    When the law changes, you would think that that a notice goes out to all the LEO's that do the enforcing right? Noooooooooooooooo,that makes too much sense.

    Instead, good people have to hire lawyers because of ignorance and that is a crock of bull.


    Especially when dealing with firearm laws.
    An example:

    Two friends of mine, one a Sargent and the other a Lieutenant decided to put on a CHL class for the church I belong to. The Sargent goes there along with me, and the LT just decided to help him because the class was big enough that all three of us would be busy.

    I taught a couple of segments, as I was listening to the Sarge teach, he mentioned that it was illegal to carry in ANY place that served alcohol. That was wrong actually, they had changed the law a full two years earlier.

    I got them both in the back of the classroom during a break and advised them of his error. The LT scotched him, unaware that the law had been changed. We got a a laptop and I showed them the recent law.
    Once shown, they corrected that bit of info when the class came in. Now you would think that both of these guys would be in the "know" right? Not so. That was the first that they heard of it, from me.

    The system is inefficient, it sucks, in todays day and age there is no excuse for it, but it is common for it to take years for those that are supposed to be in the know to catch up. In the mean time, Lawyers are laughing all the way to the bank, correcting wrongs that never should have happened.
    Hopyard likes this.
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  16. #15
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    Then again, a NRA instructor has a very narrow scope for his "profession". I would think one would not need to call a desk jockey at the local cop shop to get legal advice inside that narrow scope he is supposed to be certified proficient in.
    That said, HotGuns speaks the truth. It is what it is.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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