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Flat shooting cartridge over rated now days?

3K views 16 replies 8 participants last post by  Doghandler 
#1 · (Edited)
I see a lot of folks who when looking for a rifle to shoot at the range worrying about how flat the particular rifle will shoot.

My question is this. If you are shooting at targets at known ranges why does it even matter? It would seem to me to be more important when shooting at long range of a known distance to use the heaviest bullet your rifle will shoot accurately.

I have not found the rainbow trajectory of my old rifles any disadvantage when shooting longer ranges. I have even been known to surprise some of the kids with the flat shooting guns and the fancy optics quite regularly at the 500 yard range.
And I'm using a 45-90 with iron sights.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I do see the advantage when shooting at unknown distances. Although that advantage has been somewhat diminished with the use of range finders.

Michael
 
#2 ·
It doesn’t really except for wind drift in variable conditions.

I also have a .45-90 (Ballard High-Wall) .40-70 (Ballard High-Wall) and a .45-100 (Shiloh Sharps). I shot silhouette with the .45-90 and .40-70 and 800-900 and 1000 yard with the .45-100. On a KD (known Distance) range it’s just a question of adjusting the sites based on my sight settings for that range and compensating for conditions and even with their rainbow like trajectories it will be close enough to adjust.

Using the same bullet (550 Paul Jones Creedmoor )in my .45-90 and .45-100 I can see a difference in wind drift due to the 100s higher velocity. It gives me slightly more marging to miss a wind change.

Also when shooting silhouettes with a BPCR, the flatter the trajectory, the more of a target presentation you have based on the impact angle. IE a 21” high silhouette isn’t 21” high when your round is approaching at 30 degrees. Flatten the trajectory and gain a "taller" target.

Chuck
 
#3 ·
Excellent point on the taller target aspect. What I was mainly referring to in my post is the folks, mostly the younger crowd, who only shoot at predetermined known ranges. They come to the range set up for one distance then act like it could not be done without a super high velocity flat shooting cartridge.
Is their comparatively flat shooting 5.56 that much better that another shooters 30-06 everything else being the same?

Michael
 
#10 · (Edited)
If you know your trajectory, range, conditions, and how to pull the trigger, you'll hit it. Marksmen of the Civil War could hit a man at 1000 yards with a 58 cal 500 gr minie on top of front loaded black powder. Terminal impact angle might have reduced a 6' tall target considerably, but the target width would have been relatively constant except for a small angle due to windage. Those Springfields and Enfields were flat shooting out to 100 yards or so.

Nowadays, our young guns banty about words like "flat shooting" as if it's the be-all, end-all of long range shooting. Why I got slapped in another long range thread for suggesting that there was no such thing as a flat shooting cartridge. I said, allegorically, that all bullets drop like a rock at long ranges. Blasphemy.

I think we "old timers" understand the benefits of cross sectional density, weight, and shape when it comes to holding energy and flying true in the wind. Your coefficient of efficiency means little when that 220 Swift vaporizes from a little moisture in the air. But by heavens, we can't have recoil, or we might develop a flinch. Yes, the 6mm and 6.5mm may win a match, but by how much? I think a serious rifleman/sportsman is equally concerned with terminal effectiveness. Although my 338WM 250gr Partition starts out at 2700 fps, and it's sighted in at 500 yds, it only requires under 6 mils holdover and delivers more energy at 1000 than a 44 mag point blank.
 
#11 ·
" A marksmen is one who can make his rifle do what it was designed to do"
" an expert marksmen is one who can hit anything he sees , under appropriate circumstances".

" A master marksmen is one who can shoot up to his rifle".

Jeff Cooper. "The Art of the Rifle"
 
#14 ·
mlr1m:

Thanks for starting this important thread.

I can't wait for the younger experts to start back slapping me.

IMHO a Savage accu stock and accu trigger in a serious caliber like 308 makes the best value for shoulder friendly long range shooting. That said, I'll keep my 1/2 moa AR10, 308, and its 11 lbs, 18" bull bbl, bi pod, etc. The NATO round has been turning cover into concealment for over 1/2 century.

-Gardner
 
#16 · (Edited)
It's neato to see a couple of folks with .45-90 rifles here on the Forum.

I have both a Springfield Model 1884 "Trapdoor" .45-70 and a Winchester Model 1886 .45-90. I've used the Trapdoor from a bench rest out to 400 yards with excellent accuracy. The Model '86 45-90 has been shot at targets of opportunity overlooking the length of a section of river. Repeat hits on relatively small rocks and logs seen up and down this section of river were not difficult to achieve after a few ranging shots. Neither of these old-time cartridges are slouches if one's rifle is sighted for distance. It does require a keen ability to estimate range along with knowing how to properly use and adjust one's sights.

Too much is made of flat-shooting rifles though a "stretched string" trajectory can be an aid when shooting at unknown distances. I did some comparisons of the .30-06 and the .270 Weatherby some years ago using information gleaned from the tables in the back of the 1978 Sierra manual. A now ex-brother-in-law used to poo-poo my .30-06 and wag his Weatherby Mark V bolt action at me in derision. Now the .270 Weatherby must be considered a very flat-shooting cartridge but the useful difference in trajectory between it and the .30-06 at all realistic and prudent game-shooting ranges is absolutely nil.

The .30-06 is a flat shooting round and provides a useful trajectory for 99% of distances that a prudent hunter is likely to engage his quarry. A .270 Weatherby Magnum using a 130 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3300 feet per second has long been considered an extremely flat shooting big game round. When sighted to be dead on at 300 yards, this .270 Weatherby Magnum cartridge/bullet combination drops an additional 8 1/2 inches at 400 yards. A .30-06 with a 150 grain bullet and an initial velocity of 3000 feet per second sighted to be dead on at 300 yards drops and additional 11 inches at 400 yards. If a rifleman isn’t skillful enough to compensate for this piddly 2 1/2 inch difference in bullet drop at the extreme range that 400 yards represents, then he should have enough respect for game animals to refrain from taking long shots with any round. Another way to consider the relative trajectory of the .270 Weatherby Magnum and the .30-06 is that if each cartridge/bullet weight mentioned is sighted for 300 yards, the .270 Weatherby Magnum will be 3 inches high at 100 yards and 3 2/3 inches high at 200 yards, while the .30-06 will be 3 3/4 inches high at 100 yards and 4 2/3 inches high at 200 yards.

A .220 Swift comes closest to the "stretched string" trajectory of any cartridge I have and it whops up badly on the .223. But even the Swift bullet is a gasping flea-weight when employed at extreme range where its blistering velocity advantages have fallen away and all that one is left with is a light, small-diameter bullet.
 
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#17 ·
...But even the Swift bullet is a gasping flea-weight when employed at extreme range where its blistering velocity advantages have fallen away and all that one is left with is a light, small-diameter bullet.
No one said you had to be able to actually penetrate the broad side of the barn. In my mind just getting it there would be sufficient - and bouncing it off the roof does not count! :image035:

:embarassed:
 
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