Flat shooting cartridge over rated now days?

Flat shooting cartridge over rated now days?

This is a discussion on Flat shooting cartridge over rated now days? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I see a lot of folks who when looking for a rifle to shoot at the range worrying about how flat the particular rifle will ...

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Thread: Flat shooting cartridge over rated now days?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Flat shooting cartridge over rated now days?

    I see a lot of folks who when looking for a rifle to shoot at the range worrying about how flat the particular rifle will shoot.

    My question is this. If you are shooting at targets at known ranges why does it even matter? It would seem to me to be more important when shooting at long range of a known distance to use the heaviest bullet your rifle will shoot accurately.

    I have not found the rainbow trajectory of my old rifles any disadvantage when shooting longer ranges. I have even been known to surprise some of the kids with the flat shooting guns and the fancy optics quite regularly at the 500 yard range.
    And I'm using a 45-90 with iron sights.

    EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I do see the advantage when shooting at unknown distances. Although that advantage has been somewhat diminished with the use of range finders.

    Michael
    Last edited by mlr1m; January 16th, 2012 at 02:44 PM. Reason: I made an oopsie
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    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    It doesnít really except for wind drift in variable conditions.

    I also have a .45-90 (Ballard High-Wall) .40-70 (Ballard High-Wall) and a .45-100 (Shiloh Sharps). I shot silhouette with the .45-90 and .40-70 and 800-900 and 1000 yard with the .45-100. On a KD (known Distance) range itís just a question of adjusting the sites based on my sight settings for that range and compensating for conditions and even with their rainbow like trajectories it will be close enough to adjust.

    Using the same bullet (550 Paul Jones Creedmoor )in my .45-90 and .45-100 I can see a difference in wind drift due to the 100s higher velocity. It gives me slightly more marging to miss a wind change.

    Also when shooting silhouettes with a BPCR, the flatter the trajectory, the more of a target presentation you have based on the impact angle. IE a 21Ē high silhouette isnít 21Ē high when your round is approaching at 30 degrees. Flatten the trajectory and gain a "taller" target.

    Chuck
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Excellent point on the taller target aspect. What I was mainly referring to in my post is the folks, mostly the younger crowd, who only shoot at predetermined known ranges. They come to the range set up for one distance then act like it could not be done without a super high velocity flat shooting cartridge.
    Is their comparatively flat shooting 5.56 that much better that another shooters 30-06 everything else being the same?

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Excellent point on the taller target aspect. What I was mainly referring to in my post is the folks, mostly the younger crowd, who only shoot at predetermined known ranges. They come to the range set up for one distance then act like it could not be done without a super high velocity flat shooting cartridge.
    Is their comparatively flat shooting 5.56 that much better that another shooters 30-06 everything else being the same?

    Michael
    The flatness of a 5.56 trajectory over a 30.06 is not a good example of the point you are trying to make.
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The flatness of a 5.56 trajectory over a 30.06 is not a good example of the point you are trying to make.
    Its a whole lots flatter shootin than my 06, 303, 45-90, 30-40 and others I shoot regulary.
    My point is that a flat shooting cartridge comes into its own when you do not know the exact range. I am talking casual shooting at the range here. Am I wrong top believe that a average shooter who once he has the range dialed in can blow up gallon jugs of water at say 500 yards with his 06 as he could with his 6mm-284?
    I'm not talking shooting eggs offhand.

    Michael

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Its a whole lots flatter shootin than my 06, 303, 45-90, 30-40 and others I shoot regulary.
    My point is that a flat shooting cartridge comes into its own when you do not know the exact range. I am talking casual shooting at the range here. Am I wrong top believe that a average shooter who once he has the range dialed in can blow up gallon jugs of water at say 500 yards with his 06 as he could with his 6mm-284?
    I'm not talking shooting eggs offhand.

    Michael
    That depends on the range and load to a large extent. My .223 is great out to 250-300 yards, but then I'd go to my '06 for a sure shot. It maintains its velocity better, thus less drop at longer ranges. But for any "known" range, if your know your rifle and load, trajectory becomes moot.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Its a whole lots flatter shootin than my 06, 303, 45-90, 30-40 and others I shoot regulary.
    My point is that a flat shooting cartridge comes into its own when you do not know the exact range. I am talking casual shooting at the range here. Am I wrong top believe that a average shooter who once he has the range dialed in can blow up gallon jugs of water at say 500 yards with his 06 as he could with his 6mm-284?
    I'm not talking shooting eggs offhand.

    Michael
    Make up your mind on caliber comparisons. .223, 6mm and .284 are all different animals.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Make up your mind on caliber comparisons. .223, 6mm and .284 are all different animals.
    Both are flat shooters compared to the other calibers that I mentioned. In that respect they are in the same class.

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Both are flat shooters compared to the other calibers that I mentioned. In that respect they are in the same class.

    Michael
    At 1000 yards, a .284 Winchester pusthing a 150-grain bullet with a bc in the mid .3's is dropping about 420 inches.
    A 55 grain .223 with a bc in the mid .2's is dropping about 450 inches, but good luck getting it to maintain trajectory.
    A 6mm using a 100 grain boat with a .4 bc is dropping about 278 inches. THAT is a flat shooter.
    A 30.06 using a 165 grain boat, with a .475 bc drops 340 about 340 inches, much flatter than two of your three flat shooters.
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    If you know your trajectory, range, conditions, and how to pull the trigger, you'll hit it. Marksmen of the Civil War could hit a man at 1000 yards with a 58 cal 500 gr minie on top of front loaded black powder. Terminal impact angle might have reduced a 6' tall target considerably, but the target width would have been relatively constant except for a small angle due to windage. Those Springfields and Enfields were flat shooting out to 100 yards or so.

    Nowadays, our young guns banty about words like "flat shooting" as if it's the be-all, end-all of long range shooting. Why I got slapped in another long range thread for suggesting that there was no such thing as a flat shooting cartridge. I said, allegorically, that all bullets drop like a rock at long ranges. Blasphemy.

    I think we "old timers" understand the benefits of cross sectional density, weight, and shape when it comes to holding energy and flying true in the wind. Your coefficient of efficiency means little when that 220 Swift vaporizes from a little moisture in the air. But by heavens, we can't have recoil, or we might develop a flinch. Yes, the 6mm and 6.5mm may win a match, but by how much? I think a serious rifleman/sportsman is equally concerned with terminal effectiveness. Although my 338WM 250gr Partition starts out at 2700 fps, and it's sighted in at 500 yds, it only requires under 6 mils holdover and delivers more energy at 1000 than a 44 mag point blank.
    Last edited by gunthorp; January 16th, 2012 at 07:40 PM.
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    " A marksmen is one who can make his rifle do what it was designed to do"
    " an expert marksmen is one who can hit anything he sees , under appropriate circumstances".

    " A master marksmen is one who can shoot up to his rifle".

    Jeff Cooper. "The Art of the Rifle"
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    gunthorp:
    Thanks for doing a much better job than I did in explaining my intended point.

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    " A marksmen is one who can make his rifle do what it was designed to do"
    " an expert marksmen is one who can hit anything he sees , under appropriate circumstances".

    " A master marksmen is one who can shoot up to his rifle".

    Jeff Cooper. "The Art of the Rifle"
    I can hit the broad side of a barn IF it's in range.

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    mlr1m:

    Thanks for starting this important thread.

    I can't wait for the younger experts to start back slapping me.

    IMHO a Savage accu stock and accu trigger in a serious caliber like 308 makes the best value for shoulder friendly long range shooting. That said, I'll keep my 1/2 moa AR10, 308, and its 11 lbs, 18" bull bbl, bi pod, etc. The NATO round has been turning cover into concealment for over 1/2 century.

    -Gardner
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    mlr1m:

    Thanks for starting this important thread.

    I can't wait for the younger experts to start back slapping me.

    IMHO a Savage accu stock and accu trigger in a serious caliber like 308 makes the best value for shoulder friendly long range shooting. That said, I'll keep my 1/2 moa AR10, 308, and its 11 lbs, 18" bull bbl, bi pod, etc. The NATO round has been turning cover into concealment for over 1/2 century.

    -Gardner
    .308 is as heavy as I ever want to go.
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