Friendly Fire, Discharges Comprised 43% Of Shot L.a. Officers

Friendly Fire, Discharges Comprised 43% Of Shot L.a. Officers

This is a discussion on Friendly Fire, Discharges Comprised 43% Of Shot L.a. Officers within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; http://www.officer.com/article/artic...ion=5&id=32165 Looks like police officers are not quite the experts they portray themselves to be. I especially like the last couple of sentences. "People make ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Friendly Fire, Discharges Comprised 43% Of Shot L.a. Officers

    http://www.officer.com/article/artic...ion=5&id=32165

    Looks like police officers are not quite the experts they portray themselves to be. I especially like the last couple of sentences. "People make mistakes, Commissioner Skobin said. They are human beings." Do you think this statement would apply to me if I accidentally put a bullet through my, and my neighbor's wall, drunk or not? I think I would become the poster child for why CCW is bad, bad, bad, and only the police are expert enough to carry a gun.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    From what I've read, shot accuracy has been going down over the years (When talking about LEO's). I think the problem is two-fold; possibly how they are taught, and most importantly, how often they practice.
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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Well, we all know that DEA agents are the only ones "competent enough to carry a Glock .40"
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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    From what I've read, shot accuracy has been going down over the years (When talking about LEO's). I think the problem is two-fold; possibly how they are taught, and most importantly, how often they practice.
    Something to think about...

    As little as 25 years ago most of the recruits in the police academys had exposure to guns in some way prior to the Academy.

    Nowadays, it is not unusual to have entire classes of recruits that have never fired a gun before or even handled one. The big city academies even more so. Before some of them even start, they must be "deprogrammed" so to speak, that gun arent evil, they dont kill by themselves, and they are only as dangerous as the person that owns them.Sometimes the mental aspect of it can be quite an obstacle to overcome.

    The training that they get at the academy amounts to nothing more than basic target practice. They shoot from 3,7,10 15 and 25 yards at a target that is big and dosent move at all, and some of them really struggle to pass the qualification. It is so stressfull on them when they do finally pass, that the last thing they want to do is practice.

    In reality, most police quals are so "dumbed down" that many of that many depts have discountinued the numerical score and now simply rate it as a "pass" or "fail" There can be a world of difference between passing and failing and even if one does well, the recruit is ill equipped to handle a real life shooting situation where people are moving, shooting, shouting, yelling and there are a multitude of distractions present.

    Now...add that to some of the "poltically correct" BS that comes form some of the bigger citys, and...it is ANY wonder that accruacy has been going down over the years ?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Well, I trust that article from officer.com as being true fact. Sad fact.

    I've never had a ND & never hope to have one. "Knock On Gunmetal" - I work hard at never having one.

    The couple/few people that I either know or have heard first hand having ND - it's always been a traumatic experience.
    One (long time ago) friend of mine having been shot in the groin when somebody came over to show him his unloaded revolver & pulled the trigger sending a hot .357 through his upper leg near the family jewels.
    That blew out an incredibly large hunk of meat from the back of his leg.

    One forum member NDed through a wall w/ his little kid in the other room and felt so bad about it he hung up his guns forever...and dropped off.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    As little as 25 years ago most of the recruits in the police academys had exposure to guns in some way prior to the Academy. Nowadays, it is not unusual to have entire classes of recruits that have never fired a gun before or even handled one. The big city academies even more so.
    Yep, that'll do it. Got to love system-bred anything.
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    Distinguished Member Array USPnTX's Avatar
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    Totally unbelievable!!
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    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    The training that they get at the academy amounts to nothing more than basic target practice. They shoot from 3,7,10 15 and 25 yards at a target that is big and doesn't move at all, and some of them really struggle to pass the qualification. It is so stressful on them when they do finally pass, that the last thing they want to do is practice.
    I would need to ask my brother, but I do believe he did some moving target shooting.

    Either way, I do believe departments need to require more shooting qualifications (or mandatory practices). It would be nice if the officers would go practicing so that the departments wouldn't have to make it a requirement, but it is what it is. Sometimes people need a little shove in the right direction.

    I really would have to sit view the training officers receive before I could begin to really say what needs to be changed. From what I have heard, I do believe more academies need to focus on point shooting moving target practice. I understand the limitations of point shooting, but I feel that most shootings would of offered more shots hitting the target if point shooting was used.

    I don't have the answers to the problem, but it is a problem that needs to be taken care of. There isn't much of a reason to carry a lethal weapon if it cannot be used properly.
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    Senior Member Array sheepdog's Avatar
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    PD quals are a joke in many instances. Only a small percentage of officers shoot aside from quals/mandated training. It is not PC to turn out "gunslingers," and failing students are "remediated" until they pass. There is little or nothing departments or instructors can do to encourage skill in this area. I could do a book on this, but better wait until I retire.

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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tros View Post
    From what I've read, shot accuracy has been going down over the years (When talking about LEO's). I think the problem is two-fold; possibly how they are taught, and most importantly, how often they practice.
    I wonder too if some of it is due to the switch to autos from revolvers. If you only had six rounds available you might work harder at making sure you can hit your target. Not neccesarily spray and pray but I've seen an attitude of "hey, I got plenty of rounds" before. It's probably a many faceted issue in the end.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    The issue is not more qualifications or better qualification standards (though I am opposed to neither). The issue is the manner in which people are trained.

    Studies have been conducted attempting to correlate qualification scores and gunfight performance and have failed. A 100% qualification score does not guarantee to good performance in a gunfight nor does a marginally passing score on qualifcation contra-indicate successful gunfight performance.

    Qualifications are administrative requirements, nothing more, nothing less. All a qualification does is demonstrate that an individual is capable of competently performing a given group of skills under range conditions. The value of qualifications (as they relate to gunfighting) is further degraded by the fact that the shooter is told what skill(s) he will have to perform, prior to performing them. The shooter has the opportunity to mentally prepare, even if it is briefly.

    Gunfights require much more than the simple performance of a skill. They require the individual to quickly assess the problem, select the appropriate skill(s) and competently execute them in a compressed timeframe.

    The problem with much of today's training is that little, if any, time is spent developing the individual's ability to rapidly assess the situation and implement a solution under realistic conditions. Officers are not being conditioned to prevail in gunfights. They are being conditioned to pass agency qualifications. Not surprisingly, when confronted with a no-kidding life and death encounter, the ill-prepared officer panics and, predictably, performance suffers.

    This fact is highlighted by a shooting that occurred involving a local police department. Two of the best shooters (according to qualification score) were invovled in a running gun battle in which the officers fired 70+ rounds. The gunfight was brought to a successful conclusion when one of the worst shooters in the department (again according to qualifcation score) fired one round, killing the bad guy.
    What made the difference was that the "bad shooter" was not decisively engaged in the gunfight when he made the shot. He arrived "late for the party" and consequently was able to maintain his composure, wait for an opportunity and take the fight-ending shot. To date there has been no revision of the department's firearms training program and the two "good" shooters are the subject of jokes about there poor real-world performance, while the "bad " shooter continues to be laughed at for his poor qualification scores. Qualification scores remain the measure of firearm proficiency despite real-world experience to the contrary.

    The simple fact is there is a world of difference between the rangemaster telling you that the next string of fire will be: "draw and fire two shots center mass," and having to draw and fire two shots center mass in response to a sudden attack during a routine traffic stop. "Spray and pray" is not the result of a lack of skill but rather the result of improper training. It is "panic fire".

    I, for one, think we ought to quit blaming the individual officers and start holding the police administrators/politicians accountable for their inadequate training programs.

  12. #12
    Member Array craze's Avatar
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    What disturbed me in this article was how many of these incidences involved alcohol. Isn't it a felony to be in possession of a firearm while intoxicated? I wonder how many of these officers were charged with a felony.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array palmgopher's Avatar
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    you know i think that most officers should do some idpa type training where it isnt just sit there and shoot a paper target. I know that they are using similators now too but again that does not really involve movement which is GOING to be going on no matter what. Kind of sad that the training isnt better. I know it costs money to train but think of the money it could save on lawsuits!

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