Back up gun (BUG) carry one? Practice with it? - Page 2

Back up gun (BUG) carry one? Practice with it?

This is a discussion on Back up gun (BUG) carry one? Practice with it? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Very interesting. I am a little surprised at the number of folks with NAA minis. I had one and could barely hold onto it and ...

View Poll Results: BUG or no BUG

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  • Yes, and I practice with it too

    39 66.10%
  • Yes, but I never or rarely shoot it

    0 0%
  • No, never thought about it

    1 1.69%
  • No, thought about it but don't think I need one

    10 16.95%
  • No, I carry way too much stuff on me as it is

    9 15.25%
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Thread: Back up gun (BUG) carry one? Practice with it?

  1. #16
    Member Array HighVelocity's Avatar
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    Very interesting. I am a little surprised at the number of folks with NAA minis. I had one and could barely hold onto it and certainly couldn't hit anything smaller than Sasquatch at 10 feet.
    Now I'm wondering if I should've spent more time trying to master it.

    I've got a BUG match tonight and I plan to use my SW 640 Centennial. The ammo with the most obnoxious BOOM and biggest fireball I've found is Winchester WinClean 125gr JSP 357 mag. I tested it yesterday for POA/POI at my local indoor range and the bugeyed facial expressions from others on the firing line made it clear that THIS is definitely the ammo to use for the BUG match.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6 View Post

    I have nothing but respect for Clint Smith, his experience and his accomplishments.
    Me too; I've taken his Level II Low Level Handgun course at Thunder Ranch. Clint and other trainers sometimes he says things that have a good "ring" to them but when we analyze them some cliches are pretty shallow. To wit, "The purpose of a handgun is to fight my way to a long gun." I guess that sounds right, but the vast majority of us that CCW away from home don't have a long gun accessible to fight back to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6 View Post
    #1. I am going to a "high threat" area. Most BUGs are smaller than the primary, harder to shoot well and are chambered in a less powerful round than the primary gun. If I am going into a "high-threat" situation I want an increase in the quality of my firepower. A .32 in my pocket or a .38 on my ankle does nothing to increase my firepower. Quantity does not equal quality. If I need a second gun I want something bigger, easier to shoot well and more powerful than my primary handgun (READ: long gun). Better yet, stay home.
    My thoughts exactly! Well up to the long gun and stay home. If the main gun becomes ineffective, how does going to a lesser gun solve the problem any better? If the minute BUG is what we want to fight with, why not carry it as the main gun and have another just like it as a BUG? I always wonder that we carry a big main gun, "Carry the biggest gun you can", but we plan to fight with a much smaller gun if something happens to the main gun.

    I differ a bit on the long gun/stay at home. Neither of those are viable options for the vast majority of us CCWs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6 View Post
    #2. Instead of reloading, I'll transition to my back-up. If my handgun goes dry, I plan on reloading. The "New York reload" was fine when everyone carried a revolver and reloading was done with individual cartridges in a dump pouch. If you carry a semi-auto, I do not see the need. I have yet to meet the individual who could transition to their back-up faster than they could reload a semi-automatic pistol. I also have yet to meet the individual who practices transitioning to their BUG rather than reloading their primary.
    This is one of my "pets". I have to be honest, and I really don't want to offend anyone but, a NY reload is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in self-defense. The implications are horrenous. Blackhawk has pretty well laid out the history of this practice so I won't repeat that, but think about this. Our main gun goes empty, so we're going to drop it on the ground and draw another gun. We just threw a perfectly good gun, our first choice, away to avoid reloading it. What happens if the BUG mals or runs dry? Do we instinctively throw it away only to realize we don't have another BUG to go to? Or do we now realize we have no choice but to reload the BUG, but do we carry spare ammo for the BUG?

    Throwing away a perfectly good gun in a gunfight sounds like a really, really, bad idea.

    Blackhawk nailed this one! Practice reloading the main gun instead of throwing it away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6 View Post
    #4. My primary gun might break. I use only high quality firearms, magazines and ammunition. I maintain my firearms religiously. If I have a malfunction, I will clear it and get back into the fight. Yes, that takes time but so does accessing my second gun. In the highly unlikely event that my weapon breaks, I will close and finish the fight with my knife (the Tueller Drill works both ways).

    I would add that I have yet to meet the civilian who automatically tranisitions to their BUG rather than performing immediate action.
    Then again, how many civilians do you know that know how to fight with a knife?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6 View Post
    #5. I can arm another "good guy." I am responsible for me, you are responsible for you. Outside of a military context, I do not subscribe to the idea sharing of magazines or ammunition with other "good guys." If you could not get it done with your ammo, I have little confidence that you will get it done with any of mine. If you could not be bothered to get a permit or carry a gun (if you have a permit) that is your problem. I am not a Sherpa or a caddy.
    Two guys with one gun each does seem better than one guy with two guns and the second with none. But I suspect the chances of being in a gunfight and being close enough to give a stranger(?) or acquaintance my BUG, and that they would know how to use it effectively is really, really slim.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    G33 for me and yes it gets shot as much if not more than my other HGs....
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

  4. #19
    Member Array exit42's Avatar
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    All good points.
    Maybe a bug is just a feel good thing, but the chances are better at least if one fails the second probably won't. I do know tactical reload and practise that a lot and would go with that before getting the bug out. Also nobody wins a knife fight there is only a survivor. Everyone gets cut and I'd prefer not to go there.
    Also the group I run with I could hand off a gun to and they'd be a definate help. I've even trained with the wife with team tactics and we carry the same caliber and etc. She does not carry a bug, by the way.
    My bug is a NAA 22mag (with 5 extra rounds) in a niffty factory pocket holster. If you put your left thumb over the backstrap and grip it that way, they are quite accurate within "belly gun" distances.
    Granted some of the gun school philosophy may not be that practical, such as "fight your way to your rifle", but that would be the optimum thing to do if you could. The best advice I've heard is if you know in advance there is going to be a gunfight ...don't go.
    p.s. after over 100 hrs. training with Clint, nothing the man says is what I consider "shallow".
    Last edited by exit42; August 30th, 2006 at 12:48 PM.
    ...one jagged hole!

  5. #20
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Then again, how many civilians do you know that know how to fight with a knife?
    I do not believe it takes a tremendous amount of skill to use a knife. Undoubtedly, proper training would enhance one's effectiveness but in reality a knife and the inclination to use it are all that are required.

    That said, I am always surprised at the number of people carrying custom or semi-custom folders in their pockets who have no training in their use but have attended 20+ different shooting courses.

    Quote Originally Posted by exit42 View Post
    Maybe a bug is just a feel good thing, but the chances are better at least if one fails the second probably won't.
    What are the chances that I will get into a gunfight? What are the chances my gun will fail? What are the chances those two events will occur simultaneously?

    I think you are right, they are a feel good thing. Most of the civilians whom I have encountered that carried a second handgun had no plan to employ it. Of those who did have a plan, none practiced it regularly (or even often) or under anything resembling realistic conditions.

    The original poster asked "Do you practice with it regularly or ever?" A better question would have been "How do you train with it?"

    I think that much of the "training" being conducted with BUGs is really informal target practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by exit42 View Post
    Also nobody wins a knife fight there is only a survivor. Everyone gets cut and I'd prefer not to go there.
    There is a difference between fighting with a knife and getting in a knife fight.

    As to not going there, I would prefer not to get into any altercation, let alone one where a gun or knife is required. The reality is that we do not always get to choose and both knife fights and gunfights are ugly affairs. Given the choice of getting ugly or not going home, I'll choose getting ugly.

    Quote Originally Posted by exit42 View Post
    Also the group I run with I could hand off a gun to and they'd be a definate help.
    My social circle would undoubtedly be of assistance in a fight. The difference is they either carry their own gun or choose not to but are fully prepared to engage without one. I certainly do not feel obligated to carry one for them and those who choose not to carry a gun know that.

    Furthermore, I am probably going to be too busy to access my second gun and get it into the hands of one of my unarmed friends. I would much rather spend that time dealing with the problem and I am sure they would prefer I spend it that way too.

    Quote Originally Posted by exit42 View Post
    Granted some of the gun school philosophy may not be that practical, such as "fight your way to your rifle", but that would be the optimum thing to do if you could. The best advice I've heard is if you know in advance there is going to be a gunfight ...don't go.
    p.s. after over 100 hrs. training with Clint, nothing the man says is what I consider "shallow".
    Shooting schools are great. People who pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to train with some one should listen to what that individual has to say. I know I do when I shell out my hard-earned money. But they do not have all of the answers. I doubt Clint Smith, or any other reputable instructor, would tell you he does.

    Just because an instructor says it, does not mean it should be blindly accepted as the way to do things. That is a dogmatic approach to training. Instead, it should be evaluated and assessed within the context of your particular circumstances and adopted as you see fit. If it contradicts your experience, it should be challenged.

  6. #21
    Member Array exit42's Avatar
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    I agree. With my military training, Karate, etc. (weapons, including knives), shooting schools, Dad training, and personal experiences, I re-evaluate all the time. I just know what works for me and even that changes ocassionally.

    By the way, my quote of Clint's " one is..." is his way of saying get two of the same as in 1911s, Glocks, or AR15s. I not aware of him carrying a bug. I've only seen him carry a 1911 and a Spyderco folder.

    And so far as training with a bug, I agree. I can only imagine shooting 1200 plus rounds in a week with my nasty 22mag. I do keep up with it though.
    ...one jagged hole!

  7. #22
    Member Array Indy's Avatar
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    i carry my xd 40 service usually with two spare clips, when possible i carry my xd 40 sub compact in a center of the back job. there is something to be said about interchangeable clips.
    Hang on I saw this in a movie one time..................:flamethrowingsmiley for idpa match video click here http://www.youtube.com/v/-P3L4XfmWOg or http://www.youtube.com/v/cBkz7uZEzYs

  8. #23
    Member Array exit42's Avatar
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    Hey pretty cool video. It looks like they lean out a little too far though around the barricades (shoot what you can see).

    It would be really cool to have that setup in your basement. My family hides mirrors and stuff around the house to make sure I roll out just enough to see and shoot, but my wife says no live fire in the house!
    ...one jagged hole!

  9. #24
    Member Array HighVelocity's Avatar
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    After much deliberation (and the fact that my 640 isn't back from the smith with it's new XS big dot front sight), I have decided that in the local IDPA BUG match tonight I am going to use 1911 BUG which is a Kimber Ultra CDP.
    I haven't spent as much live fire time with it as I'd like so to make it more interesting and allow me to burn up a little more ammo, I am going to shoot CDP and BUG with it in the same match.
    My wife is going to take pics and video which I will share as long as they don't depict me ventilating myself.

    I'll be competing against some more experienced shooters with full sized guns. I am not worried however because they won't be able to shoot worth a darn after being blinded by the super nova sized muzzle flash's from the baby Kimber and her posse of 185gr target torchers.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Blackhawk6 and Tangle, great posts gentlemen.

    Here's my take on the whole BUG thing. If and when I carry one, I don't carry it because I think my carry gun will malfunction. I know, murphy's law, but if I was really expecting a malfunction, I'd find a different primary. I don't carry it for the NY-Reload for the same reasons that have already been listed.

    For me, it just gives me more options. I have people ask me why I carry 3 or 4 knives (as if they expect me to use all of them at once ). I respond by saying that if I need one I don't know what position I will be in, or which hand I will have to use to access the weapon. If I only had one, it would reduce my chances of being able to rapidly deploy it.
    This is the same way I feel about my BUG. If I am in a position that precludes me from getting to my primary. For example, if I happened to fall/get taken to the ground and ended up on my back (not an uncommon occurance in a fight), it might be difficult to access my Glock in an IWB at 4:00. At that point, I'd have the option of accessing my BUG which I usually carry at about 1:00 (A-IWB). Granted, this example may not be perfect. One, I've got a fairly strong background in empty-hand striking and grappling; Two, at that range, I'd probably be using a knife. Anyway, y'all get the idea.
    So for me, instead of a "backup" gun, I guess it's more of an "alternate" that would only come into play in a situation where my primary was unavailable.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  11. #26
    Member Array longtooth's Avatar
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    If I own it I shoot it. No safe Queens here, I cant afford them.
    Ken, your example is a very good one. My backup is reall my primary when a street thug says "give me your bilfold." Back pocket, Kel-Tec 3AT. just reach for you billfold & you don't have to lift shirt. ooopps. wrong plcket dude. Sorry.
    Your fault though. Wrong victim.
    Carry 24-7 or guess right.
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  12. #27
    Member Array Shekkian's Avatar
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    I have a BUG, but to me it's more of a "heat wave" gun, that I can hide in the front pocket of a pair of cargo shorts. I don't carry more than one piece at a time.

  13. #28
    Member Array HighVelocity's Avatar
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    Last night was the Dallas Action Pistol club's BUG (back up gun) match. There was a pretty big turn out of regular shooters and even a couple of first timers from out of town. Not everyone shot BUGs, some folks just shot their regular guns. I shot in BUG class with my Kimber Ultra CDP 3" 45acp. I also took some real firebreathing ammo for the after dark stages. Me make big fire. There was some pretty serious comedy too. I got to witness an EX shooter run out of ammo with one target left to engage AND miss a headshot at less than 5 feet. It was a hoot, especially since he helped design the stages.

    Out of 29 shooters I came in 2nd place! I got beaten by an expert (EX) shooter and his Glock 26. The best part for me though was that I shot the entire match (6 stages) CLEAN! Zero down on every stage. I've been trying to do this since my first match and I finally did it, and with a tiny 45 too.

    Here's the link to the scores: http://www.dallaspistol.com/daps/Upl...30_overall.htm

    BUG matches are a blast. You've got to shoot one.

    Safe shooting,
    Gary

  14. #29
    Member Array Garg's Avatar
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    Hardly ever carry it as an actual BUG, but I do have a 642 which I both carry and practice with. I actually find it fun to shoot that little thing.

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